Is the Mormon Church dishonest...?

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_Obiwan
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Re: Is the Mormon Church dishonest...?

Post by _Obiwan »

Runtu wrote:
Obiwan wrote:As I've already explained, I respond ACCORDING TO the hostility I see from those here.


Ah, so you're one of Wade's "mirroring" disciples. Awesome. I guess all that stuff about doing unto others as you would have them do unto you doesn't apply to apostates.


Actually, like all the intellectually and morally defunk, you don't understand language and basic common sense.
Doing unto others is a "first cause"..... My intolerance of you is "second cause", meaning my intolerance only occurs after yours.
Further, I'm on the moral right..... A cop is not a "bad guy" simply because he has to use force against a criminal. The U.S. is not the "bad guy" because we take the fight against fanatical Islam. I am on the moral high ground, condeming evil..... My intolerance is against evil and wrong, not difference of belief etc. You are not on any moral high ground by your bearing false witness of Mormons and Mormonism, by your unfair, false, and unrighteous judgments of Mormonism and Mormons. My intolerance is in relation to your evil fruits, not anything else.

If I was engaging in evil, I would have no problem of being corrected on it. But, you do.
Thus, I DO do unto others as I would have them do unto me.

If you all weren't being "immoral", then I would be responding differently.
And I know this is what I'm doing because for some 13 years I've posted all over the net, on many of different forums, every day, and with those that are actually "respectable", I post respectable toward them, and we have great discussions. We may not ever believe or agree, but we have respectable discussions.


You were sort of respectful to me over on MADB, but not here, not from the beginning.


Yes I was.... That's because YOU were more respectful over there. And thus I gave you the respect you deserved.
Yes, you are right, from the beginning I wasn't respectful to most here. That's because this is a cesspool. Of course, not as morally and intellectually as bad as exmormon.org, but many here are approaching it. From the beginning I saw the words people used, their attitudes, their immorality, and thus I responded to it accordingly.

You need to learn that anti-mormonism is "evil". It's a perversion and a darkness that is rotting your souls and infecting the world with hate and contention.


I suppose that would apply were I an "anti-Mormon."


I've seen you post like an anti-mormon, so don't pretend you are innocent.

I would recommend you all grow to become "critics" rather than anti-Mormons. Critics don't bear false witness, they don't degrade, make unfair characterizations of people and things, etc. etc., they just disagree. If you can't understand the difference between the two kinds of people, then I would recommend you learn.


Oh, I understand. It's not about critics and anti-Mormons. It's about respect and honesty, and it cuts both ways. There are honest and respectful critics and apologists, and dishonest and disrespectful apologists and critics. I don't think either is more "evil" than the other. Of course, I generally ignore such people on both sides.


Actually no it doesn't "cut both ways"..... While I won't necessarily disagree that there is the rare disrespectful Mormon or apologist, there are NONE that are "dishonest". Further, most of the disrespect you see isn't disrespect as a first cause, it's disrespect toward evil and wrong. People don't have to and are not required to be respectful to terrible things and people when terrible things are done right in front of your face. If a bully is beating someone up, am I not morally required to respond with necessary force to stop the beating? Likewise on the internet.... I see many of your evils, and thus given who I am feel morally required to respond to it. Evil never likes to be interferred with and condemned, you know the saying, the wicked take the truth to be hard. Still, that doesn't make ME or any other person who doesn't take kindly to the immorality they see before their eyes.

I for example post over at Christianforums.com and basically every non-LDS that posts about Mormonism is anti-mormon, yet there is ONE lowly person who's not LDS, doesn't believe in our religion, yet she basically never misrepresents us.


Give me an example of when I've misrepresented Mormonism so I can understand why you've been so hostile.


Okay, I'll try to remember if I see it, to show you. However, since we have been discussing and you've taken personal offense to some of my comments from the beginning, it should be clear when we first discussed if I saw you say something wrong, cause I would have pointed it out to you.

In fact, she often gets in trouble with the others because she sees them misrepresenting us, and she corrects them. Again, she believes we are false, not the true church etc. is even a critic at times, but she has "character" in her actions and behaviors, and thus she is not anti-mormon.


Heck, I'm not even sure I believe that the church is "false," but apparently, I'm one of them evil, dishonest anti-Mormons. I guess I should be glad you've pointed that out to me.


Have I been talking to you in this thread....? If not, if my words don't apply to you then why are you talking? I don't follow any of you "personally", but if I see you saying something morally and factually wrong, then I point it out. I seem to recall you once in a while saying something low of character and factually wrong, and seem to recall pointing such out to you, but I haven't been following you, so deal with what I actually say to you, and in general to all, rather than what how some of my words may not apply to you personally.

Ceeboo for example I likely wouldn't consider as someone who's anti-mormon. However, seeing some of his posts here, I wonder. But at least at MADB he wasn't an anti-mormon in his behaviors and words, and so he got respect. Sorry, but I don't give respect to the disrespectful.


Ceeboo is a good person. My approach is to be as respectful as I can to everyone. If people are jerks or dishonest, I tend to lose interest quickly. You don't have to be disrespectful to people you're ignoring.


Even when I might say something disrespectful, I still deal with people respectfully, ever trying to give people a chance. For example, look at all I've just wrote to you. I've respectfully addressed your points, and given you my perspective. I also recognize you are pretty much doing the same, so I haven't had to call you on anything. Don't get me wrong, I see you sometimes like now posting with respect, but I also see unfair cheap shots from you. I'll try to remember and point one out for you if I see something in the future. However, know that doing this is a low priority for me, so don't expect anything too soon. Although, if you say something bad, I might feel like responding, so then you will know.
_Obiwan
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Re: Is the Mormon Church dishonest...?

Post by _Obiwan »

Quasimodo wrote:Immoral? Evil? Fellow jerks? Who is misrepresenting and lying about people?


That is what I see often in many of your words toward Mormonism and Mormons, and so I'm being completely honest. It's no different than I see from the words of Liberals or Fanatics in any other group, be it fanatical Islam, other kinds of anti-mormons, KKK, or other bigots.

Bigotry is bigotry no matter where or who it comes from....
_Obiwan
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Re: Is the Mormon Church dishonest...?

Post by _Obiwan »

Runtu wrote:I missed that "fellow jerks" addition. Lovely.

I'm not sure why he thinks I'm "no friend" of his. Trying to improve the level of dialog does not make one an enemy; quite the contrary, I would think.


You guys are really clueless of the kinds of things you say here toward Mormons and Mormonism aren't you?
I mean, right now you act like you are on some "higher ground" wishing to "raise the discussion", yet when it concerns some Mormon subject, I see both of you saying monsterous low class things. I'm not at all against your apparent sincere comments by trying to improve the dialog, but outside of this disscussion I see little of that.

We aren't making these judgments up people.... By their fruits ye shall know them.
_Obiwan
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Re: Is the Mormon Church dishonest...?

Post by _Obiwan »

jon wrote:The Church spent in total $88 million dollars on humanitarian aid (cash, substance and the value of volunteer time) in 2010. The funds for this come as a separate donation to tithing. It equates to less tha $7 per member.

Zero tithing was used to help humanitarian needs, nor was tithing used to help the poor and needy Church members.

Check out those 'lies' if you like...


1. That 88 million is only a particular "type" of humanitarian aid. It not the numbers for all WELFARE assistance to ALL peoples and groups.

2. I've already told you that "Tithing" is not used for humanitarian aid jerk. So, stop repeating something I've already corrected you on. "Aid" of whatever type (not just the official humanitarian aid) comes from "Fast Offerings" and other Church auxiliaries. "Tithing" is used for other purposes.

Again, stop being a LIAR!
_Obiwan
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Re: Is the Mormon Church dishonest...?

Post by _Obiwan »

harmony wrote:
Obiwan wrote:Churches, Temples, Welfare, Humanitarian aid, and all related auxiliaries of the Church.
The "fruits" of where the money goes is all around you. And since know-one is "paid" in the Church, there is no corruption. Those who are paid, are strictly monitored, and/or said funds come from the business side of the Church. Which by the way, according to applicable law the "books ARE open".


No mention of City Creek or the Logan mall,


Church "business interests", funds SEPARATE from Church funds.
These are "for profit" enterprises, and the books are freely open, at least to shareholders per law, whatever.

the Conference Center,


The building of the Conference Center has been well documented publically.
Your lack of education is not the Churches fault.

paying off lawsuits,


Freely available information by the courts per law.

or Pres Packer's million dollar estate.


What about it.....? Seems you KNOW about it, so things don't seem so "hidden" to me.
Is it then another case of you faultfinding? Further, do you fault all the other "millionares" in the business and religious world? You do know that these men have had lives "outside" of the Church right? You do know that they sit on boards to many corporations, etc., some of which they recieve money from, all of which is public records? You seem to not have the intellectual capacity to differentiate from the Church and peoples private lives.

Is there anything in his life, character that you "doubt" his sincerity?
I know for a fact he's one of the great men of the Church. I hear him in many Priesthood and training sessions. I remember the first time hearing him in person, on a mountain top above Salt Lake with thousands of other Scouts, him below teaching wisdom, truth, character.

It is YOUR morality that I question, not his.

Why not?


Bunch of falsehoods, misrepresentations, ignorance etc. all on your part, nothing to do with the Church, as well as things clearly not as "hidden" as you falsely claim.

Get a life lady..... instead of hibernating on the computer with your conspiracy theory's.
Last edited by Guest on Tue May 17, 2011 6:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
_Obiwan
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Re: Is the Mormon Church dishonest...?

Post by _Obiwan »

jon wrote:
Obiwan wrote:The "fruits" of where the money goes is all around you. And since know-one is "paid" in the Church, there is no corruption. Those who are paid, are strictly monitored....".


Is it:
A. No one is "paid" in the Church, or
B. Those who are paid are strictly monitored


Depends on what it is..... Institute Instructors for example are educators, thus they have a job, and are thus paid.

"The Church" itself, it's spiritual institutions have a non-paid ministry.
Certain auxillary's and separate business interests of the Church do have employees and thus are paid and well monitored.

You not knowing how the Church is structured is not my problem.
Maybe you should actually attend an LDS Church for a while, doing everything the people there does, not just on Sunday and learn something before you continue opening your mouth about it. I especially recommend going to it's Priesthood leadership meetings, etc. You learn a lot by doing that. That's one thing I especially did when I returned to the Church relearning it. I saw and felt a lot of stuff in those that made all the difference. Note: I wasn't in leadership, hadn't even reconverted yet. But, anyone can go if they want. No-one is "banned".
_jon
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Re: Is the Mormon Church dishonest...?

Post by _jon »

Obi wan, do you consider the General Authorities as 'unpaid ministry'?
'Church pictures are not always accurate' (The Nehor May 4th 2011)

Morality is doing what is right, regardless of what you are told.
Religion is doing what you are told, regardless of what is right.
_SteelHead
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Re: Is the Mormon Church dishonest...?

Post by _SteelHead »

The Quorums of the Seventies, Mission Presidents, The 12, and The First Presidency are all paid. The local clergy is a lay clergy but the upper echelons all receive stipends, housing, transportation, credit cards, health care. Living expenses and what not.
Last edited by Guest on Tue May 17, 2011 11:53 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Some of us, on the other hand, actually prefer a religion that includes some type of correlation with reality.
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_harmony
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Re: Is the Mormon Church dishonest...?

Post by _harmony »

Obiwan wrote:
harmony wrote:No mention of City Creek or the Logan mall,


Church "business interests", funds SEPARATE from Church funds.
These are "for profit" enterprises, and the books are freely open, at least to shareholders per law, whatever.


Prove no funds for City Creek and Logan mall came from tithing, Obiwan. Oh, wait. You can't... the books aren't open.

Everything the church owns started out as tithing. And since we don't have open books for tithing, we have no way of knowing how much of the $5 billion and rising price tag for City Creek comes from the tithing fund. Another reason to open the books. Not that it will happen because opening the books would open the Brethren to severe criticism about the way they spend the church's money.

the Conference Center,


The building of the Conference Center has been well documented publically.
Your lack of education is not the Churches fault.


Your definition of "well-documented" and my definition of "well-documented" no doubt differ widely. Nothing is "well-documented" until the books are open. Your "well-documented" fails because you can't prove what IS public is all there is.

paying off lawsuits,


Freely available information by the courts per law.


And a line item in the budget. Which is a closed document.

or Pres Packer's million dollar estate.


What about it.....? Seems you KNOW about it, so things don't seem so "hidden" to me.


Thanks to the Trib. If the church's books were open, I wouldn't have to learn about the perfidy and outright lies of my leaders from the press.

PS. Read Rule #2 and #3 for the Celestial Kingdom.
(Nevo, Jan 23) And the Melchizedek Priesthood may not have been restored until the summer of 1830, several months after the organization of the Church.
_Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Is the Mormon Church dishonest...?

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

Hello,

I'd really like it if someone like Mr. Obi would provide a reference for his assertions.

V/R
Dr. Cam

ETA: by the way, this is a classic example of the Mopologist central tenet of the Incomplete Assertion.
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
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