Fox Advocacy Group Declares Romney Non-Christian

[_MrStakhanovite]

Not sure why Joan of Arc is brought up.

Was she a Christian? If so, why was she burned to death by the Catholic Church, who formed those very same "Ecumenical councils"? She was considered not to be a Christian, but a witch.

I was under the impression that her death was politically motivated, and the inquisition of her beliefs was just a pretext for her murder.

[_RayAgostini]

I was under the impression that her death was politically motivated, and the inquisition of her beliefs was just a pretext for her murder.

It was both, Stak. The Catholic authorities condemned her on heresy charges, and because of that they handed her over to secular (and political) authorities (the English). The resemblance to the trial and execution of Jesus is almost uncanny (to use a cliché term).

[_MrStakhanovite]

What doctrinal heresy was charged? And when did it become accepted when she was Sainted?

[_RayAgostini]

What doctrinal heresy was charged?

Claiming to speak on behalf of God; having visions, and speaking to Saints in visions.

And when did it become accepted when she was Sainted?

Irrelevant. The same Church that condemned her, later "appointed" her as a "canonized Saint". On the 16 May 1920, nearly 500 years after her execution.

"We declare that you are fallen again into your former errors and under the sentence of excommunication which you originally incurred we decree that you are a relapsed heretic; and by this sentence which we deliver in writing and pronounce from this tribunal, we denounce you as a rotten member, which, so that you shall not infect the other members of Christ, must be cast out of the unity of the Church, cut off from her body, and given over to the secular power: we cast you off, separate and abandon you, praying this same secular power on this side of death and the mutilation of your limbs, to moderate its judgment towards you, and if true signs of repentance appear in you to permit the sacrament of penance to be administered to you." - A portion of the final sentence pronounced to Joan of Arc in public after her trial.

[_MrStakhanovite]

Claiming to speak on behalf of God; having visions, and speaking to Saints in visions

I don't this it violates any of the 7 councils.

[_RayAgostini]

I don't this it violates any of the 7 councils.

So on this basis, you think she was "officially Christian"?

Trial of Joan of Arc.

Joan recanted her previous abjuration, donned men's apparel once more, was brought to trial as a relapsed heretic and burned at the stake on May 30, 1431 in the Old Marketplace in Rouen.

Do Christian Churches burn to death their adherents and believers?

[_MrStakhanovite]

I don't this it violates any of the 7 councils.

So on this basis, you think she was "officially Christian"??

for what it's worth, I don’t really support the position I brought up (I think Mormons are as Christian as The Pope or Martin Luther), but that seems to be how many seem to justify their labeling Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses, and other movements as “Non-Christian”.

Do Christian Churches burn to death their adherents and believers?

People do selfish and horrible things, if they think the ends justify the means.

[_Daniel Peterson]

But they would also be subject to some obvious criticisms: What about the believers in Jesus who lived and died (sometimes as martyrs) prior to the creeds and councils?

Grandfathered in I imagine.

But on what logically coherent basis?

What about the bishops who were outvoted at Nicea, etc.?

Like Arius? Heretics. All of them.

In fact, Arius is often regarded as the archheretic, par excellence.

However, heresy is one thing, and non-Christianity quite another. If it were not, the concept of "Christian heresy" would be unintelligible. But it's not.

Arius was never, to the best of my knowledge, held to be a "non-Christian" by his contemporaries, and he's certainly not regarded as a "non-Christian" by modern scholars:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arius

What about the non-Chalcedonian confessions? If they have ever been dismissed as non-Christians, whether by their contemporaries or by modern scholars, I've not seen it.

I was under the impression that a confession lays out a denominational requirement for membership, but the seven ecumenical councils produce creeds, which determine the requirements for membership into the Christian faith.

Sorry for the confusion. I was using the term confession as a synonym for denomination.

At any rate, my point was and is that there are plenty of ancient eastern Christian sects who did not sign onto one or more of the supposedly "ecumenical" creeds -- and that they are never considered "non-Christian," whether by their ancient contemporaries or by informed modern writers.

But I’m familiar enough with the Monophysite /Miaphysite furor that I don’t think it is implausible to say churches like the Coptic Church isn’t “Christian”, given how their Christology has an impact salvation.

Wow. I think it would be extraordinarily odd to declare the Copts of Egypt "non-Christian." Any definition of Christianity that did so would have to be regarded as eccentric, to say the least of it.

for what it's worth, I don’t really support the position I brought up (I think Mormons are as Christian as The Pope or Martin Luther), but that seems to be how many seem to justify their labeling Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses, and other movements as “Non-Christian”.

Okay. Got it.

[_DarkHelmet]

It hasn't stopped him from raising a crapload of money so far.

The weird thing is, I might vote for him.

[_Hoops]

There is no biblical definition to that effect, and it's certainly not standard English usage.

13 For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

I deny that.

I know you do. I should have phrased this differently.

And I've done it

I'm aware of this to.

at length, in detail, with abundant supporting evidence. It's been years now, and, thus far, I've seen no cogent counterargument.

When I get my kindle.