Mormonism is not "Christianity"

[_stemelbow]

Stem, I'm not sure what your point is on this.
Was Mormonism born out of the ideas prevalent in 1820's New York?

Yes. Which religion is correct?

[_stemelbow]

The best solution to the question of who is a Christian would be to always attach some qualifiers to the term Christian: traditional Christian, catholic Christian, orthodox Christian, restorationist Christian etc. But that is unlikely to happen. No one wants to surrender the right to be an unqualified Christian.

I think that's the best reasonable solution. LDS seem to be quite happy with the qualifier of LDS Christianity, or non-traditional Christianity, but in most cases, that seems to be denied as well by those who argue LDS are not Christian.

So to me the argument about who qualifies as a Christian is really an argument about the continuity or discontinuity of the Christian faith. And of course on that point Mormons and traditional Christians will continue to disagree.

Its not just LDS though that are non-traditional or who disagree on some traditional ideas/concepts.

[_beastie]

Despite what some on this board would have us believe, non-trinitarians are viewed as under the umbrella of Christianity.

In Christianity, Sabellianism, (also known as modalism, modalistic monarchianism, or modal monarchism) is the nontrinitarian belief that the Heavenly Father, Resurrected Son and Holy Spirit are different modes or aspects of one God, as perceived by the believer, rather than three distinct persons in God Himself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modalism

The fact is that the doctrine of trinitarianism was hotly debated for CENTURIES by Christians before being adopted four hundred years after the death of Christ. It is hardly self-evident, and certainly not self-evident enough to be the lynchpin for claiming certain groups who accept Jesus as their Savior aren't really Christian at all.

Hoops has agreed that Pentecostalism is Christian, and yet within the category of Pentecostal are groups that reject trinitarianism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oneness_Pentecostalism

Oneness Pentecostalism (also known as Apostolic Pentecostalism or One God Pentecostalism) refers to a grouping of denominations and believers within Pentecostal Christianity, all of whom subscribe to the nontrinitarian theological doctrine of Oneness. This movement first emerged around 1914 as the result of doctrinal disputes within the nascent Pentecostal movement and claims an estimated 24 million adherents today.[1] For a list of denominations in this movement, see List of Christian denominations.

Of course Mormonism is not TRADITIONAL or MAINSTREAM Christianity. It is not ORTHODOX Christianity, either. But I think it requires tortured standards to insist that the religion is not Christian at all. And it's suspicious to me that those tortured standards often are applied capriciously. Some state Mormons aren't Christian due to their emphasis on required rites, yet Catholicism is given a free pass (by some) on the same standard. Now it's being asserted that Mormons aren't Christian because it's not based on trinitarianism, but Pentecostalism is given a free pass.

I understand the history of antipathy that existed between Mormonism and mainstream Christianity throughout Mormonism's history. In arguing that Mormonism is, indeed, a Christian religion, I am not giving them a free pass. They're extremely exclusionary and certain view mainstream Christianity as fundamentally flawed. They felt persecuted by mainstream Christianity and leaders expressed hatred and loathing towards mainstream Christianity. So I understand the reluctance of mainstream Christianity to accept Mormonism as being a Christian religion. But the fact is that Mormonism is based on the idea that human beings would be lost to God forever without the atonement of Jesus Christ. Mormonism is based on the idea that human beings must accept Jesus as Savior to be fully reunited with God the Father. Yes, rites are required of believers, just as they are within Catholicism, but those rites are viewed as powerless WITHOUT the atonement of Christ. It all pivots on the atonement of Christ.

To ignore that fact seems to distort the very basis of Christianity, in my view. Because that is what separates Christianity from other religious traditions - acceptance of Jesus as Savior.

I grew up as Protestant, and returned to the Protestant faith after leaving the LDS church. I liked the rites and rituals of Catholicism but could not agree with some teachings so chose the Episcopal church as my home until I became an atheist. I always understood Mormonism to be Christian, as does my entire family. I regarded myself as a Christian when I was LDS, as does my entire family.

While I agree that Mormons sometimes encourage a persecution complex, I do think the determination of some mainstream Christians in insisting Mormonism is not a Christian religion could reasonably be seen as prejudice and bias.

I think a reasonable argument can be made that Mormonism is supra-Christian, which, If I recall correctly, is the argument Ms. Jack makes, but that still recognizes its roots within Christianity. Simply insisting that Mormonism is not Christian ignores its obvious Christian roots.

[Guest]

It is hardly self-evident, and certainly not self-evident enough to be the lynchpin for claiming certain groups who accept Jesus as their Savior aren't really Christian at all.

Who said it was the lynchpin? That's your representation in order to give yourself more ammunition. Trinitarianism is certainly foundational, but it is one of several views where LDS puts itself outside of Christianity.

Hoops has agreed that Pentecostalism is Christian, and yet within the category of Pentecostal are groups that reject trinitarianism.

Oneness Pentacostalism is not Christian either.

Of course Mormonism is not TRADITIONAL or MAINSTREAM Christianity. It is not ORTHODOX Christianity, either.

It is all of these things and STILL Christian. You said something about tortured standards.

But I think it requires tortured standards to insist that the religion is not Christian at all.

There are not degress of Christianity, there is no fluid wave that splashes over one religious thought to the other. That's the WHOLE point of orthodoxy, to define oneself so that another can decide what falls under that umbrella.

And it's suspicious to me that those tortured standards often are applied capriciously.

Of course it is. Yet, the standards seem to be applied quite uniformly. You may disagree with the standard, you may not like it, but you can hardly claim they applied capriciously.

Some state Mormons aren't Christian due to their emphasis on required rites, yet Catholicism is given a free pass (by some) on the same standard. Now it's being asserted that Mormons aren't Christian because it's not based on trinitarianism, but Pentecostalism is given a free pass.

Who might that be?

the idea that human beings would be lost to God forever without the atonement of Jesus Christ.

A Jesus Christ that we don't believe exists. And from that springs other heracies.

edited to delete some of Beastie's quotes

[_Jersey Girl]

beastie

Despite what some on this board would have us believe, non-trinitarians are viewed as under the umbrella of Christianity.

beastie,

The concept of the Trinity isn't what I see as setting Mormonism apart from Christianity. I don't see that as the essential "deal breaker" if you will.

[_Hoops]

They felt persecuted by mainstream Christianity and leaders expressed hatred and loathing towards mainstream Christianity. So I understand the reluctance of mainstream Christianity to accept Mormonism as being a Christian religion.

This isn't some game og "gotcha". This isn't "I'm not gonna let you in because you were mean to us once." This is about doctrine. Doctrine, we believe, is one way God communicates with us. Hence the development of the Trinity.

Yes, rites are required of believers, just as they are within Catholicism, but those rites are viewed as powerless WITHOUT the atonement of Christ. It all pivots on the atonement of Christ.

That's assuming doctrine not yet in evidence. If you can explain how the power of Christ is manifest in the forgiveness of sins, please do tell, and support with LDS doctrinal statements.

I grew up as Protestant, and returned to the Protestant faith after leaving the LDS church. I liked the rites and rituals of Catholicism but could not agree with some teachings so chose the Episcopal church as my home until I became an atheist.

So what?

I always understood Mormonism to be Christian, as does my entire family. I regarded myself as a Christian when I was LDS, as does my entire family.

Perhaps you should have had a better understanding of Christianity then.

While I agree that Mormons sometimes encourage a persecution complex, I do think the determination of some mainstream Christians in insisting Mormonism is not a Christian religion could reasonably be seen as prejudice and bias.

It sure could. Prejudice against heracy and bias for core Christian doctrine. If Mormonism happen to fall under that, so be it.

I think a reasonable argument can be made that Mormonism is supra-Christian, which, If I recall correctly, is the argument Ms. Jack makes, but that still recognizes its roots within Christianity. Simply insisting that Mormonism is not Christian ignores its obvious Christian roots.

AGain there no degress of Christianity. As much as I love Ms. Jack, and hurredly read most of everything she writes (still getting through some of it) I profoundly disagree. She's got a pony in this horse race to, it should be remembered. And, one could forcefully argue that its roots are decidedly anti- or other Christian.

[_Jersey Girl]

psssst hoops: heresy

:-)

[_Jersey Girl]

You guys :-)

I don't see a comment by MsJack using the term "supra Christianity". Could someone please tell me what that means?

[_Hoops]

psssst hoops: heresy

:-)

Lol. THANKS!! That will stay with me for about 5 seconds, then when I write it again it will come out as something like: hirucy. But i'll keep trying!!

[_Hoops]

The other day I strugged with "minute" for quite a few menuts. There are just those words that befuddle us, I guess.