BrianH wrote:No. Mormons cannot use what they believe are Jesus' words UNLESS they can SHOW some reason to think those really are Jesus' words. I already know WHAT Mormons believe. The challenge here is for them to provide a basic apologetic to DEFEND this belief, which simply means some reasons to think that WHAT they have been told to "think" is actually TRUE. And I nowhere insisted that YOU believe anything.
So, I was right about your "challenge." It's nonsensical. As I said before, it amounts to this:
Mormons: God has restored doctrines that were lost from the Bible.
BrianH: Show me where Jesus taught these lost doctrines.
Mormons: He taught them right here in our scriptures.
BrianH: That doesn't count. Show me where they are taught in the Bible.
Mormons: Uh, didn't we just say they were lost from the Bible?
There is no double standard here at all. The simple logical fact is, no matter what the Bible says, unless it records Jesus teaching what Mormons say he taught, then it is irrelevant to this discussion. The challenge here should have been simple, if the LDS organization was telling the truth. The challenge here is for Mormons to simply provide some REASONS to think that they are telling the truth when they claim that Jesus taught the distinctive Mormon doctrines I listed above.
They have provided reasons. They believe in scripture that Jesus taught. That's really all they need.
Okay so you are not a Mormon. But you ARE attacking the Bible.
I'm not attacking the Bible at all. I'm taking issue with your insistence that the Bible somehow has self-evident authority in conveying the words of God and that it alone has any relevance to whether Jesus taught something. In short, you're using a very poor argument here, and I'm just pointing it out.
But the problem is, no matter who you are, the Bible is IRRELEVANT to the topic of this debate, UNLESS you or someone can show that it records Jesus teaching the doctrines I listed above.
You've asked for Mormons to show FROM THE Bible (see? I can shout, too) that Jesus taught the uniquely Mormon doctrines (and the non-doctrines) you listed. Mormons do not believe those teachings are in the Bible--again, you already knew that--so your demand is silly and pointless.
What I do or do not believe is not the issue here.
Of course it is. You want to set the terms of the discussion by limiting acceptable sources to those you consider acceptable, which of course depend on your beliefs.
The issue here is what the LDS organization has claimed. And yes, I insist that Mormons provide some outside evidence to support their claims that Jesus taught things like the Jesus-Satan brotherhood, and polytheism, etc. as listed above.
What outside sources do you consider to be acceptable, as so far you seem to want only Bible citations?
Let me help you begin to develop an understanding of basic rhetorical logic:
Ah, snarky condescension. I must have touched a nerve. I taught logic and rhetoric when I was in grad school, so I don't believe I need a lecture from someone who has a track record of rather poor argumentative skills.
simply repeating a claim does not constitute the provision of evidence in support of that claim. One must go outside the assertion itself to provide evidence that the assertions you make are true.
If I had merely repeated a claim, you might have something. I didn't, of course.
Now, I can do that with the Bible, but that is irrelevant.
Really? You have outside evidence that Adam and Eve were the first humans 6000 years ago? That Abraham existed? That Jesus walked on water? Maybe I should rethink my beliefs.
Even if I could not - in fact even if the Bible was a complete and total hoax, invented in 1956, logically speaking, that STILL would not in any way even address the topic of THIS trhead, let alone provide any reason to think that the Mormon claims are true.
Your original challenge was "to SHOW US [there's that shouting again] some reasons to think that Christ himself ever taught the doctrines and practices listed above." All Mormons have to do to meet said challenge is to quote their own scripture. That you don't accept their scripture is irrelevant to the challenge. If Mormons had only the Bible, they would agree with you that there is no reason to believe Jesus taught those doctrines; but they accept the scriptures, so it follows that they have reason to believe Jesus taught those things.
Of course I am. Apparently you are unfamiliar with the entire field of Biblical archaeology, which has fully confirmed uncountable numbers of historical details recorded in the Bible.
Just not the important parts. What Biblical archaeology confirms is that the Bible is an ancient document, a product of its time and place. It cannot confirm any of the supernatural claims the Bible makes, and a lot of the historical claims don't add up, either (the six-day creation, the Flood, and so on).
Just because YOU are uninformed does not mean that I cannot be serious.
I suppose if I were only more informed, I'd be a young-earth creationist.
In any case, the Bible is not the issue here unless it can be shown that its pages record Jesus teaching the doctrines I listed in the OP.
Since the Mormons already agree that it doesn't, it's irrelevant. Mormon scripture is relevant to this challenge.
The fact that you cannot distinguish between the myths of Mormonism and the many thousands of indisputable historical facts recorded in the Bible has no bearing on the topic here.
Let me be clear: The Bible can be shown to be an ancient document from a particular time and place in history. The Book of Mormon cannot. But as far as unverifiable myths, I'd say it's a tie.
But now that you have made it clear that you do not believe the claims of Mormonism, there is no reason for you to pretend to be defending them.
Oh, but I'm not defending them, or even pretending to defend them. I'm simply pointing out that your "challenge" is absurd.
Obviously YOU do not have any reason to believe that the LDS really have restored the supposedly "lost" teachings of Christ.
That would seem to be obvious.
You appear to be here only to try to change the subject to drive YOUR agenda of complaining about the Bible - a topic with which you are are obviously unfamiliar.
Heh. Show me where I've complained about the Bible, or that I have such an agenda. Or that I'm unfamiliar with the Bible, which I have read and studied for many years.
But again, unless the Bible records Jesus or perhaps his apostles teaching the doctrines that Mormons attribute to him, it is irrelevant to this challenge - a challenge you are obviously not here to even try to meet.
Why meet a pointless challenge? Next, indeed.