PROOF of the Afterlife...for your Atheists out there

[_RayAgostini]

As soon as it is clear to a majority of disinterested parties that there really is a measurable phenomenon in the light of day so to speak, then we will set about explaining it. As it stands, it is just what one would expect given the frailties of human imagination and perception.
The fringe scientists and ghost hunters are free to build ghost busting machines all they like and if every stray heat signature or bit of static electricity tickles their home made instruments and imaginations then fine too.

Well, Tarski, it's like this: Virtually every "paranormal investigator" started out as a skeptic, including Raymond Moody, who is widely credited with kicking off NDE studies in the late 70s. He was initially not a believer, until he began correlating what he was hearing over and over. So, in fact, he was initially a "disinterested party", who later became convinced that there was something to the phenomenon.

I have no "final verdict" about NDEs one way or the other, either, though I think there is substantial evidence in favour of life after death, as you noted elsewhere, though, not necessarily patterned on Mormon doctrine. I even doubt there will be a resurrection, for example, but that our "spirit essence" (I suppose what Joseph Smith termed "intelligences"), if you like, will continue.

But really, ultimately, it's no skin off my nose (pardon the pun) if we're "dead forever", because we wouldn't even know we once existed.

Wretched, ephemeral race, children of chance and tribulation, why do you force me to tell you the very thing which it would be most profitable for you not to hear? The very best thing is utterly beyond your reach: not to have been born, not to be, to be nothing. However, the second best thing for you is: to die soon. - Aristotle

[_Daheshist]

nOk, that is a legitimate question: are they ALL liars? All lying for the money they are paid for these stories? I think that is legitimate. Thus far, about 40 celebrities have been on Celebrity Ghost Stories. That means, all of them are lying. What is the probability of that? I think many of these Celebs don't need the 10K they were paid for these stories. Many have lots of money, and I don't think most of them would deliberately fabricate a story, in their name, about their own life, for 10K or whatever they were paid. Certainly, some could be lying, but I don't think all or most were. To pass all these stories, about 40 of them as "lying" or "overactive immaginations" is JUST NOT logical, but the antithesis of logic and openmindedness.

I have "seen" ghosts too, and I am NOT lying. Nobody is paying me to say it. I've spoken to many, many others who have seen ghosts, and I did not pay them for their story. Also, I know where there are many thousands of such stories on the Internet, not one of them "paid".

One ghost I saw was of a Drill Instructor killed in the early 1950s, at Marine Corps Recruit Depot in San Diego. Now, nobody told me about this "ghost" until I saw him and began to tell others. Finally, a corportal in the Supply Company said to me, "Oh yeah, that was Drill Instructor Mike, we call him that. He was killed by a recruit during the Korean War. Lots of people have seen him". A few days after I saw him, in the daytime, I was alone in the squad bay overseeing the personal belongings of the Reserves while they were at lunch, so nobody would steal their stuff, and I started FREEZING, seeing my breath. I kept leaving that cold spot and it kept following me. Finally, I went outside into the 80 degree sunshine, and the cold spot followed me outside, like I was FREEZING to death!!!

The argument: "There is no God because there is Santa Claus, if one believes in God they MUST also believe in Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy" is like the argument..."There are no Black Holes because we can't see them, and if Black Holes exist, so must fairies and giant spagfetti monsters because we can't see them either".

An Atheist is a faith-based person...one cannot "KNOW" that is no God. ONe can believe, but that is faith, and faith is religion. Atheism is faith-based, not fact-based. Religion is also faith-based.
Atheists are simply Narcissists...they worship of own selves. They don't "want" any other thing to worship other than their own egos. That is why they are so arrogant. Atheism gave us Hitler, and Stalin, and Mao....all Megalomaniacs. Atheism is a faith-based philosophy. Because we cannot KNOW there is a God, and we cannot KNOW there is one. But one thing I KNOW...I have SEEN ghosts, and heard them, and so have many others. And what I can see and hear, I KNOW exists.

And of course these 'celebrities' are getting paid for their stories. Once you throw money in there, that always mucks things up as giving them an incentive to lie.

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

So.

I just watched none of those episodes.

Why?

Because I'd rather watch someone do "Fat Guy in a Little Coat" on YouTube than suffer through Mr. Dr's nonsense.

- VRDRC

[_Bret Ripley]

Tangent: I find I'm a bit bothered by the physics of ghosts.

Let me explain: if a ghost is a disembodied spirit and hangs around familiar places, it is behaving as if it has mass. If a ghost has no mass, it will not be affected by gravity and other forces that tend to keep things in place. If a ghost has mass, it can be observed, measured, and possibly registered to vote in Chicago. If a ghost stops having mass for even a moment -- say it is auditioning for "The Haunted" and the script calls for it to walk through a wall -- it will cease to be subject to gravity and will be left behind in space as the earth barrels through space in its 67,000 mph orbit of the sun.

And so I leave you with this thought: if ghosts do exist we are probably littering the galaxy with them, the poor dumb bastards.

[_marg]

I haven't taken a look at the celebrity ghosts stories Darrick and I won't. In your first paragraph the selected sample is not all celebrities it is only those celebrities with ghost stories. If one searches for people willing to tell ghost stories especially being paid to do so one can easily find them. On my recent holiday, my husband and I ate at a tourist trap restaurant that was pretty much empty and the waitress mentioned that the place was haunted, as she explained one night while she was there alone, the piano played by itself. I forget who she claimed must have been playing it, I think the previous owner...and that story I guess was supposed to intrigue us. At the time she's telling us this I'm saying to myself this is probably a sales pitch she's drummed up to try to make the place sound or seem more interesting. Certainly I didn't believe her that a piano would start playing by itself only in her presence nor did I think she was delusional.

Now onto my dad. He's almost 90 but not the least bit senile or mentally impaired. Recently he said he was lying down on the couch in the afternoon and out of the corner of his eye he saw a young woman standing there. So apparently he sat up, he thinks he was fully awake sitting there with her staring at him saying nothing. And he said he was annoyed so he stared back and was even talking to her asking her what she wanted and why didn't she say anything. Apparently he looked away for some reason and when he looked back she was gone. That's basically his version of the story. Now he doesn't believe there was really a woman there, even though it seemed to him real. He's fully aware that the mind was playing a trick on him. And when he was telling me this story neither one of us are assuming something extremely strange went on that maybe a woman was really there, the way we looked at it is appreciating how the mind can deceive.

[_RayAgostini]

I've only ever had one "ghost experience" in my life. Actually it was a poltergeist experience, also witnessed by my daughter, who was living with me at the time. Nothing before, or since, like that ever happened to me. It does seem odd that we experienced the same phenomenon (loud midnight bangs, footsteps, doors opening and closing) when we weren't in the house at the same time. My daughter was so scared that she sometimes rang me when I was at work, asking to "please come home quickly", because it was "giving her the creeps". I'm pretty sure she wasn't imagining it. I was so concerned that I asked the leasing agent if the house had reports of a past history of "haunting". They couldn't confirm that, probably because it wasn't reported? I was glad to leave that place, and not have to go to bed at night almost expecting to be woken at 2am by loud bangs, or "things that go bump in the night". I've had five years of peaceful, non-interrupted sleep where I now live.

Well, for what it's worth, some scientists do seem interested in the phenomenon:

Virtual ghost imaging: New technique enables imaging even through highly adverse conditions.

[_Brackite]

Well, Tarski, it's like this: Virtually every "paranormal investigator" started out as a skeptic, including Raymond Moody, who is widely credited with kicking off NDE studies in the late 70s. He was initially not a believer, until he began correlating what he was hearing over and over. So, in fact, he was initially a "disinterested party", who later became convinced that there was something to the phenomenon.

I have no "final verdict" about NDEs one way or the other, either, though I think there is substantial evidence in favour of life after death, as you noted elsewhere, though, not necessarily patterned on Mormon doctrine. I even doubt there will be a resurrection, for example, but that our "spirit essence" (I suppose what Joseph Smith termed "intelligences"), if you like, will continue.

But really, ultimately, it's no skin off my nose (pardon the pun) if we're "dead forever", because we wouldn't even know we once existed.

Hi Ray,

I definitely believe that our "intelligences" lives on after we die. I do Not find that belief conflicting with science in any way. I am a strong believer in Evolution. I think that the main reason why some Ex-Mormons don't believe in any kind of an afterlife is because they don't want to believe in anything that the Mormons believe in.

[_RayAgostini]

I definitely believe that our "intelligences" lives on after we die. I do Not find that belief conflicting with science in any way. I am a strong believer in Evolution. I think that the main reason why some Ex-Mormons don't believe in any kind of an afterlife is because they don't want to believe in anything that the Mormon believes in.

Hi, Brack,

Always good to see you posting here, and I always enjoy reading your opinions. I think it's a case of throwing out both baby and bathwater.

[_Brackite]

Near-Death Experiences with Animals:
http://www.near-death.com/animals.html

According to many paranormal sources including near-death sources, animals have souls just as humans do. But humans, in general, have always considered animals to be inferior to people. Humans are at the top of the food chain and they are at liberty to kill and eat a wide variety of animal species. Animals, such as the horse, have lived as a virtual slave to human beings for thousands of years. Animals have also been treated in ways that can only be described as cruel and inhumane. Many people have treated animals this way without even the thought that, perhaps, animals have souls also. Science has given us a different perspective of the animal kingdom. Evolution reveals that the ancient ancestors of humanity were, in fact, animals. With this in mind, why shouldn't all people believe that modern humans are animals as well? Ancient civilizations had religions that even held animals to be divine beings. In the Bible, the Book of Revelation, a person can read about all kinds of animals in heaven. For all these reasons, there should be no reason to believe animals are inferior and have no souls. The following are near-death experiences that involve communication and contact with animals on the other side - specifically beloved dogs that died before their owners had a near-death experience. These experiences should convince anyone that animals do, indeed, have souls.

Animals and the Afterlife:
http://www.animalsandtheafterlife.com/

[_hatersinmyward]

Any person that has used marijuana habitually wont doubt the existence of Pot Goblins.

I don't doubt the existence of The Bull Mastiff but if ghosts are now on animal planet they must be real.