For the critics... what do you say to missionaries?

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_thews
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Re: For the critics... what do you say to missionaries?

Post by _thews »

thews wrote:
Tobin wrote:Thews, you are confused. The Urim and Thummim were returned to God and were different from the seer stones (of which Joseph Smith had at least two).

CFR


Answer:
Tobin wrote: JSH 1:34 He said there was a book deposited, written upon gold plates, giving an account of the former inhabitants of this continent, and the source from whence they sprang. He also said that the fulness of the everlasting Gospel was contained in it, as delivered by the Savior to the ancient inhabitants;
JSH 1: 35 Also, that there were two stones in silver bows—and these stones, fastened to a breastplate, constituted what is called the Urim and Thummim—deposited with the plates; and the possession and use of these stones were what constituted “seers” in ancient or former times; and that God had prepared them for the purpose of translating the book.


Well Tobin, this is the part where I prove conclusively that you're wrong. Your argument has no links or dates, and I don't want to do your research for you, but I assure you my argument will have all references. Following the data I'll present, you'll either fail to respond, or respond by failing to acknowledge the data I presented. If you were to be intellectually honest, the only possible retort would be to acknowledge there never was an "Urim and Thummim" in Mormon history, but rather the Nephite spectacles and Joseph Smith's seer stones. We'll see if I'm right...

Facts:

The lost 116 pages was supposedly translated using the Nephite interpreters. They were taken back (per D&C10:1) after the supposd evil-doers stole them, leaving only Joseph Smith's seer stones which were used for the entire translation of the published Book of Mormon.

The term "Urim and Thummim" was not used until three years after the Book of Mormon was published.

http://www.boap.org/LDS/History/HTMLHis ... html#N_13_

Note the dates in the title...
History of the Church Vol.1

Chapter 3. [Jan. 1827 - Mar. 1829]

The Nephite Record Delivered To Joseph-- The Angel's Warning--The Work of Translation.


Followed by this (note footnote 13)...
1. Now, behold, I say unto you, that because you delivered up those writings which you had power given unto you to translate by the means of the Urim and Thummim,(13) into the hands of a wicked man, you have lost them.

2. And you also lost your gift at the same time, and your mind became darkened.

3. Nevertheless, it is now restored unto you again; therefore see that you are faithful and continue on unto the finishing of the remainder of the work of translation as you have begun.


Footnote 13...
13. The term Urim and Thummim, while used in this revelation and in the ms text does not appear in early publications of the revelation, nor does it seem to have been used in any contemporary document of the principals. No early ms of this revelation survives apparently. In the 1833 Book of Commandments, verse one read "Now, behold I say unto you, that because you delivered up so many writings, which you had power to translate, into the hands of a wicked man, you have lost them. . . ." Thus, the words "by the means of the Urim and Thummim" in verse one were not part of this verse in the Book of Commandments; nor was section 17, which also makes use of the term Urim and Thummim, printed in the Book of Commandments. Both section 17 and verse one of section 10, as we now have them, first appeared in the 1835 edition of the Doctrine and Covenants. Lyndon Cook writes:

While the retroactive placement of the term in section 10 has led to some speculation relative to the Prophet's having the instrument in his possession, a preponderance of evidence confirms the Prophet's own testimony: "With the records was found a curious instrument, which the ancients called 'Urim and Thummim,' which consisted of two transparent stones set in the rim of a bow fastened to a breastplate" (History of the Church, 4:537 [Wentworth letter]). The problem here seems to be one of terminology, not whether or not the Prophet had possession of an ancient artifact. Until some time after the translation of the Book of Mormon, the sacred instruments may have been referred to as "Interpreters," or "spectacles." It is possible that Joseph Smith's inspired translation of the Bible played some part in designating the translating instrument "Urim and Thummim." The earliest use of the term Urim and Thummim in Mormon literature is in the Evening and Morning Star (January 1833). An article on the Book of Mormon, undoubtedly authored by W. W. Phelps, stated, "It was translated by the gift and power of God, by an unlearned man, through the aid of a pair of Interpreters, or spectacles--(known, perhaps in ancient days as Teraphim, or Urim and Thummim)." [RJS, 17]

[Phelps' speculation that the Old Testament word "Teraphim" refers to an object or objects similar to the Urim and Thummim is wrong. Teraphim were small household idols. Recent studies in regard to Biblical "Urim and Thummim," historically the object of wide speculation, suggest they were similar in character to the "Interpreters" had by Joseph Smith. See notes in JSCOM.]


Hiram Page also used a seer stone, but Joseph Smith claimed Satan had deceived him, stating specifically that Satan was the "power" behind his seer stone.
http://mormonthink.com/transbomweb.htm
Hiram Page, one of the eight witnesses of the Book of Mormon and a leader in the Church, had a peep stone which he used to obtain revelations. Joseph Smith himself admitted that Hiram Page gave false revelations through his stone and that the other witnesses to the Book of Mormon were influenced by his revelations:

To our great grief, however, we soon found that Satan had been lying in wait to deceive,... Brother Hiram Page had in his possession a certain stone, by which he obtained certain "revelations" ... all of which were entirely at variance with the order of God's house, ... the Whitmer family and Oliver Cowdery, were believing much in the things set forth by this stone, we thought best to inquire of the Lord concerning so important a matter ... (History of the Church, by Joseph Smith, vol. 1, pp.109-10).

The Doctrine and Covenants 28:11 instructs Joseph Smith to have Oliver Cowdery tell Hiram Page that "those things which he hath written from that stone are not of me, and that Satan deceiveth him."


In 1843, Hyrum Smith asks Joseph Smith to use the Urim and Thummim, placing them (the so-called "Urim and Thummim") in Smith's possession in 1843, which negates the claim that God had taken them back prior to 1843.

http://books.google.com/books?id=vLgUAA ... 43&f=false
Hyrum very urgently requested Joseph to write the revelation by means of the Urim and Thummim.


Here's some more factual accounts regarding the use of Joseph Smith's seer stones... note they don't use "Urim and Thummim" once, but "seer stones" specifically.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emma_Smith
Emma acting as a scribe. She became a physical witness of the plates, reporting that she felt them through a cloth, traced the pages through the cloth with her fingers, heard the metallic sound they made as she moved them, and felt their weight. She later wrote in an interview with her son, Joseph Smith III: "In writing for your father I frequently wrote day after day, often sitting at the table close by him, he sitting with his face buried in his hat, with the stone in it, and dictating hour after hour with nothing between us."[4]


http://www.mrm.org/translation
Harris' description concurs with that of David Whitmer, another one of the three witnesses whose testimony appears at the front of the Book of Mormon. Whitmer details exactly how the stone produced the English interpretation. On page 12 of his book An Address to All Believers in Christ, Whitmer wrote,

"I will now give you a description of the manner in which the Book of Mormon was translated. Joseph Smith would put the seer stone into a hat, and put his face in the hat, drawing it closely around his face to exclude the light; and in the darkness the spiritual light would shine.


http://www.mrm.org/translation
Martin Harris was one of the scribes Joseph Smith used to record the writing on the plates. This enabled him to give a first-hand account of how Smith performed this translation. Harris noted,

"By aid of the Seer Stone, sentences would appear and were read by the Prophet and written by Martin, and when finished he would say 'written;' and if correctly written, the sentence would disappear and another appear in its place; but if not written correctly it remained until corrected, so that the translation was just as it was engraven on the plates, precisely in the language then used" (CHC 1:29).


So Tobin, what say you regarding these facts?

Since this is going off-topic, you may want to avoid some redundancy by reading this:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=21890
2 Tim 4:3 For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine.
2 Tim 4:4 They will turn their ears away from the truth & turn aside to myths
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Re: For the critics... what do you say to missionaries?

Post by _malkie »

'Bring all the good that you have and let us see if [I] can add to it.'
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Maksutov: "... if you give someone else the means to always push your buttons, you're lost."
_thews
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Re: For the critics... what do you say to missionaries?

Post by _thews »

KevinSim wrote:
RayAgostini wrote:He wasn't satisfied with the "simple approach" to Mormonism, but he also refused to accept that it was an "obvious" fraud.

And he was right. Mormonism isn't an obvious fraud. People who would criticize it need to realize that the people who believe in LDS theology will never take those critics seriously until those critics take LDS theology seriously.

This is where we disagree Kevin. Mormonism is an obvious fraud, unless you acknowledge the truth (based on facts) and then claim to believe in it. You have been trained (without knowing it) to disregard what critics say as "anti" in a knee-jerk response to immediately reject it as a lie. Do you follow the advice of the LDS church and only use their approved sources of information? If yes, I'd be curious as to why? For example, what do you think about Mormonthink.com? http://mormonthink.com/book-of-abraham-issues.htm Have you read any of the arguments presented?

To answer your question about how I "know" Joseph Smith was a false prophet of God, it would be based on numerous facts. Seer stones are occult objects and Joseph Smith used them before the Book of Mormon to "see" evil treasure guardians. Contact with the dead, specifically evil spirits...

Deuteronomy 18
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... ersion=NIV
10 Let no one be found among you who sacrifices their son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, 11 or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. 12 Anyone who does these things is detestable to the LORD; because of these same detestable practices the LORD your God will drive out those nations before you. 13 You must be blameless before the LORD your God.


To Paul O's argument about the incorrect translation of Facsimile 3, what do you make of Joseph Smith's incorrect translation?

Image
http://mormonthink.com/book-of-abraham-issues.htm
EXPLANATION

Fig. 1. Abraham sitting upon Pharaoh's throne, by the politeness of the king, with a crown upon his head, representing the Priesthood, as emblematical of the grand Presidency in Heaven; with the scepter of justice and judgment in his hand.
Fig. 2. King Pharaoh, whose name is given in the characters above his head.
Fig. 3. Signifies Abraham in Egypt as given also in Figure 10 of Facsimile No. 1.
Fig. 4. Prince of Pharaoh, King of Egypt, as written above the hand.
Fig. 5. Shulem, one of the king's principal waiters, as represented by the characters above his hand.
Fig. 6. Olimlah, a slave belonging to the prince.


Then we have polygamy, racist doctrine, excommunication of nearly all the supposed witnesses, a failed attempt to translate a known hoax in the Kinderhook plates, The Jupiter talisman (another occult object), bleeding ghost stories, the Sarah Ann Whitney letter where Joseph Smith is cheating on his wife, the many changes to the Book of Mormon to include "White and delightsome", the JST where Joseph Smith writes himself into the Bible, and on and on... that's how I know. If you can rationalize the above points of contention with data I would love to hear them. If your response is based on opinion without acknowledging the facts, then I would argue that you are blinded by an obvious fraud.
2 Tim 4:3 For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine.
2 Tim 4:4 They will turn their ears away from the truth & turn aside to myths
_thews
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Re: For the critics... what do you say to missionaries?

Post by _thews »

Stormy Waters wrote:Having been a missionary I have a lot of empathy for the missionaries. They have almost zero free time. They have to try to fill their days with missionary activities with almost no breaks. Their leaders are constantly pressuring them to get better results. They face almost constant rejection.


Did you ever come across a critic while knocking on doors? I wonder if any of the questions they can't answer sticks with them?

Question to the former missionaries: Did you ever encounter a critic while knocking on doors that put an element of doubt in your mind?

Stormy Waters wrote:Sometimes I would like to save them the trouble of dedicating two years of their lives to a false church but I think exposing them to damaging information about the church is almost pointless. Their access to the internet is restricted, so they wouldn't be able to dig deeper or verify the things that you told them. They would probably just write off what you told them as anti-Mormon lies.


This is the part that kills me... I feel sorry for them, because they are mentally trained to be obedient and accept what they're supposed to believe without using critical thought. While one could argue the experience of being a Mormon missionary was good (in retrospect), replacing that experience with a healthy dose of growing up would also be good. I just find it tragically sad they really have no clue, though their intentions are, without question, sincere in my opinion.
2 Tim 4:3 For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine.
2 Tim 4:4 They will turn their ears away from the truth & turn aside to myths
_Tobin
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Re: For the critics... what do you say to missionaries?

Post by _Tobin »

thews wrote:So Tobin, what say you regarding these facts?
You are confused as I said.
After I had obtained the above revelation [Section 3], both the plates and the Urim and Thummim were taken from me again; but in a few days they were returned to me, when I inquired of the Lord, and the Lord said thus unto me: [Section 10, follows.] (Joseph Smith, HC 1:23)
So basically, you have created this gobbledegook theory based on a misunderstanding of what happened in relation to D&C 10. WoW!?! And then you compound it by simply ignoring what Joseph Smith said about what he received from God such as the gold plates and U&T because it doesn't fit your views. There is nothing left to say about your treatment of the material.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
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Re: For the critics... what do you say to missionaries?

Post by _malkie »

thews wrote:
Stormy Waters wrote:Having been a missionary I have a lot of empathy for the missionaries. They have almost zero free time. They have to try to fill their days with missionary activities with almost no breaks. Their leaders are constantly pressuring them to get better results. They face almost constant rejection.


Did you ever come across a critic while knocking on doors? I wonder if any of the questions they can't answer sticks with them?

Question to the former missionaries: Did you ever encounter a critic while knocking on doors that put an element of doubt in your mind?

Stormy Waters wrote:Sometimes I would like to save them the trouble of dedicating two years of their lives to a false church but I think exposing them to damaging information about the church is almost pointless. Their access to the internet is restricted, so they wouldn't be able to dig deeper or verify the things that you told them. They would probably just write off what you told them as anti-Mormon lies.


This is the part that kills me... I feel sorry for them, because they are mentally trained to be obedient and accept what they're supposed to believe without using critical thought. While one could argue the experience of being a Mormon missionary was good (in retrospect), replacing that experience with a healthy dose of growing up would also be good. I just find it tragically sad they really have no clue, though their intentions are, without question, sincere in my opinion.

I agree. I think this is why several (many) critics have no problem whatsoever being kind to the missionaries - providing a meal, drink, rest.

Several of us have children who have served missions, and believe in trying to give the missionaries we encounter a little comfort from what our children experienced. It's good to be kind, even if you disagree with their message.
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Maksutov: "... if you give someone else the means to always push your buttons, you're lost."
_thews
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Re: For the critics... what do you say to missionaries?

Post by _thews »

Tobin wrote:
thews wrote:So Tobin, what say you regarding these facts?
You are confused as I said.
After I had obtained the above revelation [Section 3], both the plates and the Urim and Thummim were taken from me again; but in a few days they were returned to me, when I inquired of the Lord, and the Lord said thus unto me: [Section 10, follows.] (Joseph Smith, HC 1:23)
So basically, you have created this gobbledegook theory based on a misunderstanding of what happened in relation to D&C 10. WoW!?! And then you compound it by simply ignoring what Joseph Smith said about what he received from God such as the gold plates and U&T because it doesn't fit your views. There is nothing left to say about your treatment of the material.

Thanks for proving me 100% correct. You have acknowledged nothing, are in complete ignorance of the historical record (facts), and 100% obedient to placing belief in what you're told to believe. Critical thought is a learned skill, but in order to formulate an educated opinion, one must have the capability to weigh arguments based on their merit. If you choose to continue this discussion, please acknowledge the factual data presented, as your opinion is just that... what you're instructed to accept as the truth.
2 Tim 4:3 For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine.
2 Tim 4:4 They will turn their ears away from the truth & turn aside to myths
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Re: For the critics... what do you say to missionaries?

Post by _Tobin »

thews wrote:Thanks for proving me 100% correct. You have acknowledged nothing, are in complete ignorance of the historical record (facts), and 100% obedient to placing belief in what you're told to believe. Critical thought is a learned skill, but in order to formulate an educated opinion, one must have the capability to weigh arguments based on their merit. If you choose to continue this discussion, please acknowledge the factual data presented, as your opinion is just that... what you're instructed to accept as the truth.
Believe whatever you want to believe buddy. There is nothing stopping you.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
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Re: For the critics... what do you say to missionaries?

Post by _Themis »

thews wrote:
Question to the former missionaries: Did you ever encounter a critic while knocking on doors that put an element of doubt in your mind?



Not really. I was in the south, so just Bible thumpers. Their arguments always used the Bible which is a lost cause. I not sure if I had come across real criticisms it would have affected to much. Many missionaries have family at home, and such that our minds will find away to keep believing regardless of the evidence. It is way easier after your mission to come to grips with the evidence, and may be a better place to learn about it first, although for most it is still to hard. Could someone like DCP ever come to grips with it? I think he is to far in, and depends on the church in to many ways to ever allow his mind to accept what is obvious to others.
42
_thews
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Re: For the critics... what do you say to missionaries?

Post by _thews »

Tobin wrote:
thews wrote:Thanks for proving me 100% correct. You have acknowledged nothing, are in complete ignorance of the historical record (facts), and 100% obedient to placing belief in what you're told to believe. Critical thought is a learned skill, but in order to formulate an educated opinion, one must have the capability to weigh arguments based on their merit. If you choose to continue this discussion, please acknowledge the factual data presented, as your opinion is just that... what you're instructed to accept as the truth.
Believe whatever you want to believe buddy. There is nothing stopping you.

What I believe is based upon evidence. What you believe is based upon obedience to accept what you're told to accept. Enjoying the dancing shadows on the wall and continue to do/believe as you're instructed... some find bliss in ignorance. If you ever decide to take a peek outside, I urge you to follow some of the links in the data I presented, especially this one, since it's a Mormon approved link that negates your argument:

http://www.boap.org/LDS/History/HTMLHis ... html#N_13_
2 Tim 4:3 For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine.
2 Tim 4:4 They will turn their ears away from the truth & turn aside to myths
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