thews wrote:Tobin wrote:Thews, you are confused. The Urim and Thummim were returned to God and were different from the seer stones (of which Joseph Smith had at least two).
CFR
Answer:
Tobin wrote: JSH 1:34 He said there was a book deposited, written upon gold plates, giving an account of the former inhabitants of this continent, and the source from whence they sprang. He also said that the fulness of the everlasting Gospel was contained in it, as delivered by the Savior to the ancient inhabitants;
JSH 1: 35 Also, that there were two stones in silver bows—and these stones, fastened to a breastplate, constituted what is called the Urim and Thummim—deposited with the plates; and the possession and use of these stones were what constituted “seers” in ancient or former times; and that God had prepared them for the purpose of translating the book.
Well Tobin, this is the part where I prove conclusively that you're wrong. Your argument has no links or dates, and I don't want to do your research for you, but I assure you my argument will have all references. Following the data I'll present, you'll either fail to respond, or respond by failing to acknowledge the data I presented. If you were to be intellectually honest, the only possible retort would be to acknowledge there never was an "Urim and Thummim" in Mormon history, but rather the Nephite spectacles and Joseph Smith's seer stones. We'll see if I'm right...
Facts:
The lost 116 pages was supposedly translated using the Nephite interpreters. They were taken back (per D&C10:1) after the supposd evil-doers stole them, leaving only Joseph Smith's seer stones which were used for the entire translation of the published Book of Mormon.
The term "Urim and Thummim" was not used until three years after the Book of Mormon was published.
http://www.boap.org/LDS/History/HTMLHis ... html#N_13_
Note the dates in the title...
History of the Church Vol.1
Chapter 3. [Jan. 1827 - Mar. 1829]
The Nephite Record Delivered To Joseph-- The Angel's Warning--The Work of Translation.
Followed by this (note footnote 13)...
1. Now, behold, I say unto you, that because you delivered up those writings which you had power given unto you to translate by the means of the Urim and Thummim,(13) into the hands of a wicked man, you have lost them.
2. And you also lost your gift at the same time, and your mind became darkened.
3. Nevertheless, it is now restored unto you again; therefore see that you are faithful and continue on unto the finishing of the remainder of the work of translation as you have begun.
Footnote 13...
13. The term Urim and Thummim, while used in this revelation and in the ms text does not appear in early publications of the revelation, nor does it seem to have been used in any contemporary document of the principals. No early ms of this revelation survives apparently. In the 1833 Book of Commandments, verse one read "Now, behold I say unto you, that because you delivered up so many writings, which you had power to translate, into the hands of a wicked man, you have lost them. . . ." Thus, the words "by the means of the Urim and Thummim" in verse one were not part of this verse in the Book of Commandments; nor was section 17, which also makes use of the term Urim and Thummim, printed in the Book of Commandments. Both section 17 and verse one of section 10, as we now have them, first appeared in the 1835 edition of the Doctrine and Covenants. Lyndon Cook writes:
While the retroactive placement of the term in section 10 has led to some speculation relative to the Prophet's having the instrument in his possession, a preponderance of evidence confirms the Prophet's own testimony: "With the records was found a curious instrument, which the ancients called 'Urim and Thummim,' which consisted of two transparent stones set in the rim of a bow fastened to a breastplate" (History of the Church, 4:537 [Wentworth letter]). The problem here seems to be one of terminology, not whether or not the Prophet had possession of an ancient artifact. Until some time after the translation of the Book of Mormon, the sacred instruments may have been referred to as "Interpreters," or "spectacles." It is possible that Joseph Smith's inspired translation of the Bible played some part in designating the translating instrument "Urim and Thummim." The earliest use of the term Urim and Thummim in Mormon literature is in the Evening and Morning Star (January 1833). An article on the Book of Mormon, undoubtedly authored by W. W. Phelps, stated, "It was translated by the gift and power of God, by an unlearned man, through the aid of a pair of Interpreters, or spectacles--(known, perhaps in ancient days as Teraphim, or Urim and Thummim)." [RJS, 17]
[Phelps' speculation that the Old Testament word "Teraphim" refers to an object or objects similar to the Urim and Thummim is wrong. Teraphim were small household idols. Recent studies in regard to Biblical "Urim and Thummim," historically the object of wide speculation, suggest they were similar in character to the "Interpreters" had by Joseph Smith. See notes in JSCOM.]
Hiram Page also used a seer stone, but Joseph Smith claimed Satan had deceived him, stating specifically that Satan was the "power" behind his seer stone.
http://mormonthink.com/transbomweb.htm
Hiram Page, one of the eight witnesses of the Book of Mormon and a leader in the Church, had a peep stone which he used to obtain revelations. Joseph Smith himself admitted that Hiram Page gave false revelations through his stone and that the other witnesses to the Book of Mormon were influenced by his revelations:
To our great grief, however, we soon found that Satan had been lying in wait to deceive,... Brother Hiram Page had in his possession a certain stone, by which he obtained certain "revelations" ... all of which were entirely at variance with the order of God's house, ... the Whitmer family and Oliver Cowdery, were believing much in the things set forth by this stone, we thought best to inquire of the Lord concerning so important a matter ... (History of the Church, by Joseph Smith, vol. 1, pp.109-10).
The Doctrine and Covenants 28:11 instructs Joseph Smith to have Oliver Cowdery tell Hiram Page that "those things which he hath written from that stone are not of me, and that Satan deceiveth him."
In 1843, Hyrum Smith asks Joseph Smith to use the Urim and Thummim, placing them (the so-called "Urim and Thummim") in Smith's possession in 1843, which negates the claim that God had taken them back prior to 1843.
http://books.google.com/books?id=vLgUAA ... 43&f=false
Hyrum very urgently requested Joseph to write the revelation by means of the Urim and Thummim.
Here's some more factual accounts regarding the use of Joseph Smith's seer stones... note they don't use "Urim and Thummim" once, but "seer stones" specifically.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emma_Smith
Emma acting as a scribe. She became a physical witness of the plates, reporting that she felt them through a cloth, traced the pages through the cloth with her fingers, heard the metallic sound they made as she moved them, and felt their weight. She later wrote in an interview with her son, Joseph Smith III: "In writing for your father I frequently wrote day after day, often sitting at the table close by him, he sitting with his face buried in his hat, with the stone in it, and dictating hour after hour with nothing between us."[4]
http://www.mrm.org/translation
Harris' description concurs with that of David Whitmer, another one of the three witnesses whose testimony appears at the front of the Book of Mormon. Whitmer details exactly how the stone produced the English interpretation. On page 12 of his book An Address to All Believers in Christ, Whitmer wrote,
"I will now give you a description of the manner in which the Book of Mormon was translated. Joseph Smith would put the seer stone into a hat, and put his face in the hat, drawing it closely around his face to exclude the light; and in the darkness the spiritual light would shine.
http://www.mrm.org/translation
Martin Harris was one of the scribes Joseph Smith used to record the writing on the plates. This enabled him to give a first-hand account of how Smith performed this translation. Harris noted,
"By aid of the Seer Stone, sentences would appear and were read by the Prophet and written by Martin, and when finished he would say 'written;' and if correctly written, the sentence would disappear and another appear in its place; but if not written correctly it remained until corrected, so that the translation was just as it was engraven on the plates, precisely in the language then used" (CHC 1:29).
So Tobin, what say you regarding these facts?
Since this is going off-topic, you may want to avoid some redundancy by reading this:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=21890