Decent Post on Proof and Evidence at Sic et Non

[_stemelbow]

I don't do that to people.

My point about enacting the Ignore feature is twofold:

1. You are not going to change people. Posters here are going to interact the way they will interact. And, like it or not, the "free speech" environment here, which has both advantages and disadvantages, does allow for hostilities to occur.

2. You basically have a choice...kind of like free agency. You can choose to interact with certain folks, while simply ignoring others, either by using the Ignore feature, which shrinks their responses so you don't have to read them unless you click on them, or, you can simply skip over the reading of certain individuals, like you have admitted to doing with Scratch.

Since the Ignore feature is available, and the tenor of Shades' board is very clear, I honestly think it is a little silly to continually whine about negativity. You and Why Me are the biggest offenders of this. The problem is, it is kind of like "the boy who cried wolf". When there is a constant complaint about the known tenor of the board, then it basically falls on deaf ears. Then, unfortunately, when there is a REALLY SEVERE crisis, even if it is valid, there is a danger of it being unnoticed based on the messenger.

I am not saying any of this to attack you, Stem, or be mean in any way. I like you; you know that.

But basically, the reason I created my own little private board was because I had no desire to change Shades' board; I like Shades board, am a Moderator here, and accept it for what it is. However, I wanted my own little corner of the Internet where I could conduct discussions my way.

No one is stopping you from doing the same! I will even help you if you are interested in starting a board. I can give you advice on software, etc.

I appreciate it. I hope you realize I get your position and respect it. My view is a bit different. While I see there is a use for ignore, I prefer to give people chance after chance after chance. That's my view.

I have no interest in starting a board. My interest is clear--I want the walls built up that distinguish the sides to crash down. I don't like the anger here, and I don't appreciate the hostility by LDS shown on the MDD board, even though I have vented a time or two about treatment here over there. Over there I'm not free to offer such a perspective as I do here. So I don't busy myself there. I actually like it here. And I don't mind getting the brunt of anything. I'm here to understand the "other's" perspective. Honestly I like Kish' perspective on many things so I read his posts. I like DJ"s perspective, so I read his posts. I know actual serious conversation won't happen with DJ, but I still try and often get frustrated. I'm eager to figure it out more, though.

[Guest]

I clearly disagree and I don't think you nor anyone has made a very good case for that at all. It is quite clear the 8 testified of seeing the plates. That they said Joseph Smith was a translator was not to testify they know he translated. That they said the plates were translated, does not mean they testified they know the translation was true. The testimony seems quite clear to me, they soberly testified they saw plates, the appeared ancient and they had writings or some kind of markings on them. That seems obvious to the point of having even DJ agree that Joseph Smith had some plates. All he can do about it now is question whether the witnesses were qualified to know if the plates were ancient, which is fair enough, but beside the point. And in the wake of all of this, you turn the discussion to a complaint about me. have fun.

In your deliberately blinkered attempt to "summarize" the goings on here, you completely ignore the fact that Joseph Smith is the one who authored the testimony. They didn't voluntarily and spontaneously say that Joseph Smith translated the plates. He wrote a statement that they signed their names to. He wrote it in that way because he wanted their names signed to a statement that identified him as the translator of the plates they touched. As anyone can figure out quite easily, he knew that it was unlikely that many people would have the opportunity to question these people on the precise meaning and intentions behind their individual signatures. What was important for him was to get a list of names in support of the fact that he had plates and that he had translated those particular plates that they had seen and touched.

Now, I can still see room for uncertainty regarding Joseph's precise reasons for doing this (i.e., was it a conscious fraud or not?), but I don't think that one can claim reasonably that the indication that Joseph Smith translated the plates that they had touched was not a fundamental aspect of their testimony. Your claim to the contrary is just silly.

I don't have to convince you of anything. I am fairly certain that you know that we are right. You simply continue to feign stupidity in the hopes that the mere act of contradiction can substitute for a reasoned rebuttal of some kind, the latter being something you haven't even attempted to offer.

[_Sophocles]

I wonder why there is such a ganging up, bullying mentality in response to posters like me.

I get why I'm not liked. No one likes it when another comes along and shines a light on poor behavior.

Which is it? Do you wonder or do you get it?

Or could it be that the fact that you claim to wonder about so much that you actually get has something to do with it?

[_Kishkumen]

ah, you misunderstand, the resentment I see is not resentment directed at me, which is clearly there, But the misdirected resentment that is common here. Mr. Dehlin brought it up often in complaining about DCP on his short stay here--DCP, he would bluster, hurts people. Thus came his personal shots at DCP here. That's not fair. DCP could be the worst scholar in the world and come up with all sorts of terrible arguments and ideas and it wouldn't hurt a sole. To misdirect anger is not healthy, in some cases.

Well, stem, you can bellyache about others' misdirected anger and resentment as though your corrections were going to help. You could also abandon that hopeless endeavor and just behave in a manner that isn't liable to feed resentment, misdirected or otherwise.

There is the fact of how people have responded, and your moralizing observations about how they have responded. The difference between the fool and the wise man in this instance is that the fool complains about the outcome, while the wise man tries to preempt the outcome by not contributing to its causes.

You can yell at the cupboard when you bump your head on it, or you can just look where you stick your head next time. Learn to identify what you have control over, and try to ignore those things that you can't control. I know I am one to talk, but it is a decent observation for all of us to consider.

[_Kishkumen]

I don't do that to people.

My point about enacting the Ignore feature is twofold:

Stem will undoubtedly not take your advice because it is antithetical to his real motive for being here, which is to scuttle conversation by littering the board with empty contradictions and nannying.

At this point I don't see how anyone can conclude otherwise in seriousness.

[_Kishkumen]

Wait a second, you consider me the weak and yet you pile on...oh well.

Ha! Nice try, french fry.

I consider you crafty, not weak. You feign weakness in the service of your agenda, which is to scuttle discussion on this board.

[_Doctor Scratch]

Yeah, I do have to admit that it seems like Elder Bennett is playing a game.

[_stemelbow]

In your deliberately blinkered attempt to "summarize" the goings on here, you completely ignore the fact that Joseph Smith is the one who authored the testimony. They didn't voluntarily and spontaneously say that Joseph Smith translated the plates. He wrote a statement that they signed their names to. He wrote it in that way because he wanted their names signed to a statement that identified him as the translator of the plates they touched. As anyone can figure out quite easily, he knew that it was unlikely that many people would have the opportunity to question these people on the precise meaning and intentions behind their individual signatures. What was important for him was to get a list of names in support of the fact that he had plates and that he had translated those particular plates that they had seen and touched.

I plain disagree. In no way does the statement testify that Joseph Smith translated the plates correctly. It categorizes him as translator and the plates as translated. There is no reason to assume as you do, in reading Joseph Smith' mind, that he intended the 8 witness testimony to be anything more than a testimony of the plates existence. The wording is not suggesting Joseph Smith's translation is true.

and blah blah blah whining comments about me.

[_Kishkumen]

I plain disagree.

Go ahead and argue the case. You have to somehow ignore the fact that the witnesses signed a statement, authored by Joseph Smith, that claimed that he translated the leaves of the plates they touched with their own hands. Unfortunately for you, the document itself would contradict your argument.

Your naked contradiction is noted, and it is exactly what I would expect, based on your usual modus operandi. Faced with the evidence to the contrary, you can't do much more than disagree in a manner that lacks any substance. You don't have an argument.

[_Chap]

I don't do that to people.

My point about enacting the Ignore feature is twofold:

Stem will undoubtedly not take your advice because it is antithetical to his real motive for being here, which is to scuttle conversation by littering the board with empty contradictions and nannying.

At this point I don't see how anyone can conclude otherwise in seriousness.

I have experience much inner peace since putting whyme on ignore. Others who contribute only repetitive and diversionary posts can be treated the same way.

Incidentally, has anyone noticed the change in stemelbow's prose in some recent posts? It seems that his eagerness to respond to posters like Kishkumen has caused him to forget to apply his usual folksy filter. Now we get complex sentences, normally spelled, and in some cases using quite subtle phrasings.

That increases my sense that what we have here is an intelligent LDS poseur, who has been attempting to use the 'Hey! I ain't nuttin'.' persona of stemelbow to increase the noise to signal ratio on the board, and hence reduce the effectiveness of threads that deal with subjects he finds uncongenial.