Can a good Mormon be an Ayn Rand Objectivist?

[_lulu]

How can you be so critical of films you've never even seen?

Why do you say Blixa has never seen them?

[_Bret Ripley]

You know what doesn't merit a 5 page thread?

Ayn Rand.

This is where you are wrong, mon ami: we have not yet begun to exhaust the marvelous depths of things Rand.

For example: Ayn Rand's birth name was Alisa Rosenbaum, which is an anagram for "A biomass unreal". Or "A lesbian's amour". I'd like to see someone try that with David Hume.

[_huckelberry]

You know what doesn't merit a 5 page thread?

Ayn Rand.

MrStakhonovite,
As a matter of philosophy in a formal sense I think you are right.. There may be little valuable philosophy behind her chosen dictums. On the other hand, I think there is some sociological interest in why and how she has become as influential as she has.

Ok, most of the time I do not think of her as influential. She rarely crosses my mind. People I know do not talk of her with admiration. I notice sometimes that outside of my own interests there are ideas going about which may be influencing the world I live in.

Reviewing u tube clips about her the other day some observations surprised me. There was part of an interview with William Buckley in which he observed that Atlas Shrugged has sold more copies than any other novel. I do not know if he is correct but if even in the ball park of correct it is a striking observation. Now Mr Buckley was discussing why he, a conservative, was on Rands will not speak to this person list. He had published a review critical of the novel. Buckley seemed to find the affair funny. That may be because he liked the characterization of the novel as a " ideological confabulum".

I was a bit more struck by the Mike Wallace interview 1959. In it Rand made a series of observations about government which I have heard repeatedly word for word connected with tea party beliefs nowdays. Hearing them from the tea party I have wondered who made these rules and why should they be believed. I suspect now that a part of the answer would be, Ayn Rand did and because she says so.

[_Darth J]

You know what doesn't merit a 5 page thread?

Ayn Rand.

This is where you are wrong, mon ami: we have not yet begun to exhaust the marvelous depths of things Rand.

For example: Ayn Rand's birth name was Alisa Rosenbaum, which is an anagram for "A biomass unreal". Or "A lesbian's amour". I'd like to see someone try that with David Hume.

Duh, me avid.

Yeah, a lesbian's amour is much better.

[_Darth J]

You know what doesn't merit a 5 page thread?

Ayn Rand.

You know what does merit a 5-page thread? Watching Tea Party zombies punch themselves in the face.

[_Kishkumen]

You know what doesn't merit a 5 page thread?

Ayn Rand.

And yet there are countless mega-threads devoted to the likes of Will Schryver and Daniel Peterson.

[_huckelberry]

You know what doesn't merit a 5 page thread?

Ayn Rand.

And yet there are countless mega-threads devoted to the likes of Will Schryver and Daniel Peterson.

Now that is a testament to boredom.

[_EAllusion]

Yeah, if you aren't familiar with LeVay Satanism, which is what self-described Satanists are, it's just a variation of Ayn Rand with some gothic aesthetics and ritual. If Mormonism is compatible with Rand, then ditto for Mormonism and Satanism.

[_Kishkumen]

Yeah, if you aren't familiar with LeVay Satanism, which is what self-described Satanists are, it's just a variation of Ayn Rand with some gothic aesthetics and ritual. If Mormonism is compatible with Rand, then ditto for Mormonism and Satanism.

I would agree that LeVay Satanism has more in common with Objectivism than Mormonism has in common with Objectivism.

[_Darth J]

Yeah, if you aren't familiar with LeVay Satanism, which is what self-described Satanists are, it's just a variation of Ayn Rand with some gothic aesthetics and ritual. If Mormonism is compatible with Rand, then ditto for Mormonism and Satanism.

I would agree that LeVay Satanism has more in common with Objectivism than Mormonism has in common with Objectivism.

Official Church of Satan website

Objectivism, the philosophy of Ayn Rand, is an acknowledged source for some of the Satanic philosophy as outlined in The Satanic Bible by Anton LaVey. Ayn Rand was a brilliant and insightful author and philosopher and her best-selling novels Atlas Shrugged and The Fountainhead continue to attract deserved attention for a new generation of readers. I am a strong admirer of Ayn Rand but I am an even stronger admirer of Anton LaVey for the vital differences between the philosophies of Objectivism and Satanism.

First, Objectivism holds that metaphysics, that branch of philosophy which concerns itself with the nature of reality, determines the nature of epistemology (which is concerned with how man acquires knowledge) as well as ethics (which is concerned with valuing human action), politics (social ethics) and art. Current philosophical disagreement on this issue still continues. It is, in fact, an unproven assertion by Rand that one's metaphysical assumptions determine one's ethics.

You don't have to start with metaphysics to create your ethics. Satanism does not assert that the fundamental truth of the nature of reality (metaphysics) is known. In fact, Satanists utilize two different metaphysical assumptions regarding reality as evidenced in Satanic ritual as opposed to the rest of life. In effect, Satanists are pragmatic regarding their beliefs concerning reality. Thus, as Satanists do not claim to know the absolute “truth” regarding what is real they are, by definition, not “Objectivists” who hold that reality is totally objective. Satanists proclaim that doubt is vital in the absence of proof. At this fundamental level there is division between the two views of reality.

Second, Satanism does not hold that “a life appropriate to a rational being” is the sole standard of ethical right as does Objectivism. If anything, Satanism holds that indulgence in life or “fun” as perceived by the individual is the highest standard of ethics. Satanists see that Objectivism has enthroned reason above the individual as opposed to utilizing this sole means to knowledge as a tool to achieve a purpose. Satanism enthrones the individual as a whole, not reason, as the supreme standard to determine the value of actions (ethics).

Third, Rand's philosophy rejects as ethical accepting the sacrifice of another to one's self (to paraphrase the end of Galt's oath from Atlas Shrugged). The Satanic view sees as ethical the reality of domination of the weak by the strong. The assertion in Objectivism is that the use of force to cause others to submit to the will of the stronger or cleverer individual is "wrong" for the individual. This is a second major assertion which Satanism finds unproven by the Objectivists. Consequently, the Satanist is far more flexible in the choice of actions available than is the Objectivist who cannot simply accept his personal needs as absolutely reliable to determine the best course of action in any circumstance.

Fourth, Objectivism is purely atheistic with a complete rejection of the value of a god in their metaphysics. The Satanic view of this is in pure agreement except in two areas. The Satanist holds that the meaning of god is useful when one holds it to mean the most important person in an individual's universe and chooses that person to be himself. The Satanist also ascribes magical god-like qualities to himself when indulging in the alternate view of reality enjoyed in ritual. In both instances, Satanism sees the cultural effect of religion and god as an emotional asset to be tapped rather than simply rejected. In other words Satanism is a religion (with the individual as God) and Objectism isn't.

Let me conclude this brief overview by adding that Satanism has far more in common with Objectivism than with any other religion or philosophy. Objectivists endorse reason, selfishness, greed and atheism. Objectivism sees Christianity, Islam and Judaism as anti-human and evil. The writings of Ayn Rand are inspiring and powerful. If the reader has not yet experienced her power, try her novelette Anthem for a taste. You will almost certainly come back for more.

At the same time, Satanism is a “brutal” as well as a selfish philosophy. We do not hold, as do the Objectivists that the universe is “benevolent.” Satanists view the world as neutral, beyond the concepts of benevolent or treacherous, good or evil. Satanism enables the Satanist to codify his life beyond the ethical and metaphysical straightjacket which Objectivism unfortunately offers. This is not written to attack Objectivism but merely to clarify the areas of difference.

Satanism drew from Objectivism as even Rand drew from others. Both are, however, unique. Both are different from the other.