For Pahoran: Did Smith have sex with Helen Mar Kimball?

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_Chap
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Re: For Pahoran: Did Smith have sex with Helen Mar Kimball?

Post by _Chap »

lulu wrote:
bcspace wrote:You don't honestly believe an 18th century horn dog would be able to have so much sex without leaving a trail of children do you? Your only answer so far has been and will be speculation and innuendo.


Did you mean 19th?

Abortion was available.

Withdrawal was available.

By 1838 condoms made from rubber (who'd have thought) were available.

By 1838 rubber diaphrams were available.


Reusable condoms were available well before the 19th century: see for instance the references in James Boswell's diary:

"Tuesday 10 May 1763
At the bottom of the Haymarket I picked up a strong, jolly young damsel, and taking her under the arm I conducted her to Westminster Bridge, and then in armour complete did I engage her upon this noble edifice. The whim of doing it there with the Thames rolling below us amused me much."


The idea that sex has to mean the inevitable begetting of children is only self-evident to those who have a lack of historical knowledge of the topic.

And I really, really cannot see why Mormons today would want to deny what the CoJCoLDS made great efforts to prove by affidavits of the women concerned given in the Temple Lot Case: that contrary to the contentions of the "Reorganised" Mormons, Smith had sex with his plural wives.

If he was married to them, why would he have not had sex with these women?
Last edited by Guest on Mon Nov 05, 2012 11:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_Ceeboo
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Re: For Pahoran: Did Smith have sex with Helen Mar Kimball?

Post by _Ceeboo »

Chap wrote:
If he was married, why would he have not had sex with these women?


Ummmmm?
Because he was married! :razz:


Peace,
Ceeboo
_Chap
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Re: For Pahoran: Did Smith have sex with Helen Mar Kimball?

Post by _Chap »

Ceeboo wrote:
Chap wrote:
If he was married, why would he have not had sex with these women?


Ummmmm?
Because he was married! :razz:


Peace,
Ceeboo


OK, since you insist:

ETA "To them"
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_sock puppet
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Re: For Pahoran: Did Smith have sex with Helen Mar Kimball?

Post by _sock puppet »

lulu wrote:
bcspace wrote:You don't honestly believe an 18th century horn dog would be able to have so much sex without leaving a trail of children do you? Your only answer so far has been and will be speculation and innuendo.


Did you mean 19th?

Abortion was available.

Withdrawal was available.


Indeed, Onanism dates back to Genesis.
_Chap
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Re: For Pahoran: Did Smith have sex with Helen Mar Kimball?

Post by _Chap »

But amongst the things I'd love to get out of this thread is an answer to the question:

"Why do some modern Mormons seem so anxious to prove that Joseph Smith never had sex with any of those women he was married to apart from wife number 1?"

Why?
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_lulu
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Re: For Pahoran: Did Smith have sex with Helen Mar Kimball?

Post by _lulu »

sock puppet wrote:Indeed, Onanism dates back to Genesis.


I wonder what they called "levi lovin'" back then?
"And the human knew the source of life, the woman of him, and she conceived and bore Cain, and said, 'I have procreated a man with Yahweh.'" Gen. 4:1, interior quote translated by D. Bokovoy.
_sock puppet
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Re: For Pahoran: Did Smith have sex with Helen Mar Kimball?

Post by _sock puppet »

lulu wrote:
sock puppet wrote:Indeed, Onanism dates back to Genesis.


I wonder what they called "levi lovin'" back then?

I think the Biblical term is dry humpin.
_Ceeboo
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Re: For Pahoran: Did Smith have sex with Helen Mar Kimball?

Post by _Ceeboo »

sock puppet wrote:Indeed, Onanism dates back to Genesis.


And Onanism is usually a sign of a great date.


Peace,
Ceeboo
_Chap
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Re: For Pahoran: Did Smith have sex with Helen Mar Kimball?

Post by _Chap »

OK, so we have dealt with two reasons for supposing that Smith did not have sex with Helen Mar Kimball, a girl to whom he was married:

1. Because she was living with her parents (I mean, don't laugh! They married the girl to the Prophet!)

2. Because she is not known to have given birth to a child by him.

And of course as Mormon apologists have argued (see above) the mere fact that she was fourteen need not have been any barrier in the time and place in which Smith lived.

Is there any other reason to suppose that he would not have had sex with this particular woman he was married to?
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_son of Ishmael
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Re: For Pahoran: Did Smith have sex with Helen Mar Kimball?

Post by _son of Ishmael »

Chap wrote:OK, so we have dealt with two reasons for supposing that Smith did not have sex with Helen Mar Kimball, a girl to whom he was married:

1. Because she was living with her parents (I mean, don't laugh! They married the girl to the Prophet!)

2. Because she is not known to have given birth to a child by him.

And of course as Mormon apologists have argued (see above) the mere fact that she was fourteen need not have been any barrier in the time and place in which Smith lived.

Is there any other reason to suppose that he would not have had sex with this particular woman he was married to?



Good point. On one hand they say that getting married at 14 was common in that day yet they still want to say that Joseph Smith did not have sex with a 14 year old girl. They would be better served to just own it. Just say "Yes Joseph Smith married all of those women and had sex with them all."
I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo

Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man. - The Dude

Don't you know there ain't no devil, there's just god when he's drunk - Tom Waits
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