Mandatory Euthanasia of Senior Citizens.... Liberal Morality

[_Analytics]

People talk about the 'Circle of Life' but in reality they treat it like a line. And the end of the line is the end of life, and the end of life is to be avoided at all costs, because life is sacred.

But if we look at the universe, don't we see that old lives give way for the new? And if you think of our world like that, the linear line of separate lives and deaths merge, and curve into a circle. Everything constantly re-invents itself.

My father died when he was 86. He had always lead an active in life, but the last 15 years of his life were not kind. He had always been the man in charge, the guy who picked up the tab, but it was hard to be that guy when you were using a walker. A series of strokes slowed his speech. A room filled with banter, the kind of room he used to effortlessly navigate, was becoming an incomprehensible universe. The final humiliation was incontinence.

He was an old man who had a good life. He didn't want to be a burden. When he fell and broke his hip there was a complication, and with the family all gathered around his bed he said "let me go, let me go". Medicine was capable of prolonging his suffering, but our family (who received end of life counseling at the hospital) elected not to.

Social institutions and conventions change, sometimes for very pragmatic reasons. The average age of marriage has risen continuously over centuries in developed countries. Birth control has lead to different social models. Sex has been decoupled from marriage, and (for those who are educated enough) the control of child bearing for women.

Advances in medicine can give us a lot more life. The American lifespan nearly doubled in the 20th century. But for many elderly people, the end of their lives begins to look like a futile rearguard action that only postpones the inevitable, without adding to the richness of their life experience. People should have the right to make well informed choices about the end of their lives.

When you see life as a circle (i.e. reincarnation) the idea of giving up your life to make way for the new is not something that should be avoided at all costs.

Great post. My I take off my (black) hat to all of you who replied to an extraordinarily stupid OP with insightful thoughts that address real issues.

[_Droopy]

Doesn't the morality depend upon the profit and loss statement for the Soylent Green Corporation and whether they contribute to the Super GOPac?

Soylent Green is a leftist dystopia, Mok, not a conservative hell. I can't imagine Hayek, Von Mises, Buckley, Lewis, Chesterton, Rush Limbaugh, Mark Steyn, Walter Williams, Thomas Sowell, Victor Hansen, Milton Friedman, Harvey Mansfield etc. making wafers out of human beings to decrease the surplus population.

I can imagine Paul Ehrlich or Al Gore supporting such, however, given sufficient shielding from accountability.

[_EAllusion]

I participate in end of life counseling for all of my clients. Beyond dealing with grief and loss issues, what we go over is simply what measures you want to be taken to prolong or make less risky your life in the event of common health issues that affect people, especially as they age. Do you want a g-tube, ventilator, CPR, etc.? This is done because emergencies and age can rob people of their ability to make their will known. So it is done beforehand. All of these cares have significant implications for quality of life. While I favor the legality of doctor-assisted suicide, this isn't about that. It's about having the ability to voluntarily accept or refuse cares with profound risk/benefit considerations.

It's all but universally recommended by medical professionals for everyone. I have these decisions in place. Any decent health insurance would provide coverage for this service, both because it is the humane and responsible thing to do for people and because it can prevent unnecessary expenses on medical interventions a person doesn't want. To characterize it as akin to a board of people imposing involuntary euthanasia is both disgusting in its misrepresentation and brazen in how transparent of a lie it is.

[_Res Ipsa]

I participate in end of life counseling for all of my clients. What we go over is simply what measures you want to be taken to prolong or make less risky your life in the event of common health issues that affect people, especially as they age. Do you want a g-tube, ventilator, CPR, etc.? This is done because emergencies and age can rob people of their ability to make their will known. So it is done beforehand. All of these cares have significant implications for quality of life. While I favor the legality of doctor-assisted suicide, this isn't about that. It's about having the ability to voluntarily accept or refuse cares with profound risk/benefit considerations.

It's all but universally recommended by medical professionals for everyone. I have these decisions in place. Any decent health insurance would provide coverage for this service, both because it is the humane and responsible thing to do for people and because it can prevent unnecessary expenses on medical interventions a person doesn't want. To characterize it as akin to a board of people imposing involuntary euthanasia is both disgusting in its misrepresentation and brazen in how transparent of a lie it is.

I completely agree, provided that there is adequate informed consent. Most of the forms I have seen refer to something like "extraordinary measures" and then some blanks to put down specifics. However, it seems to me that what are considered "extraordinary measures" today would not be considered extraordinary by most folks in my generation. I think that leads to some confusion and apprehension.

Anecdotal example. My aunt was admitted to the hospital for treatment of a non-fatal condition. She was encouraged to sign a health care directive form. When she looked at the form, there was were no examples of what would be considered an extraordinary measure. When she asked, she was very surprised to learn that CPR would be included in that category. Now, I think I have a pretty good handle on the difference between the safety and effectiveness of CPR as perceived by the general public and the medical realities. But, she began to wonder about what would happen if she hadn't asked, and that made her distrustful of the whole process. Justified or not, she came away feeling like she was being pushed toward declining any of the extraordinary measures.

So, the informed consent really depends on the efforts of folks like you. And as long as they are as thorough as you, I think it works out well. But there is a ton of room for miscommunication, so I think caution is warranted. At a minimum, the directive forms should, in my opinion, contain a checklist of the most common interventions, such as CPR, ventilation, feeding tube, hydration, etc. along with a written summary of the probable risks and benefits.

[_EAllusion]

Hi Brad,

I've worked with a few different versions of forms, but all the ones I've seen meet your expectations for what a form should look like. They sequentially list various cares or extraordinary measures and then offer a description. This is followed by a place to check whether a person wants it or not and several lines to explain circumstances or indicate special instructions. Usually there are pictures as well. At the end of the form, there are blank sections to add any additional considerations. I can't see why a preplanned end of life counseling would deviate from that model.

The population I work with have cognitive deficits, usually related either to developmental disability or traumatic brain injury. My job is to explain these issues in a way that they can understand and provide meaningful input on. Many people with cognitive disabilities are enmeshed in a community where they can see these cares first hand - they might know someone with a g-tube for example - so they sometimes understand them better than people without disabilities.

There are definitely ways that counseling on these issues can be done well or poorly, but it should be completely uncontroversial as to whether it should be included in a sound health coverage package. It improves autonomy, quality of life, and saves money. That people can manufacture controversy over radical misrepresentation of even that is disturbing.

[_ldsfaqs]

People who distort the right to death with dignity in the face of terminal illness into mandatory euthanasia ought to be ashamed.

Indeed. That's where Palin came up with the brilliant notion of "death panels" in the ACA -- from a proposal to help people plan ahead and decide whether they want extraordinary measures to be taken to revive and sustain them near the end of their lives.

No it is not..... There are recent articles out that show Palin was exactly right and even Democrat's are admitting it. They were not "people planning ahead for themselves" you complete brainwashed liberal fool, they were the GOVERNMENT making the decision.

[_Quasimodo]

Indeed. That's where Palin came up with the brilliant notion of "death panels" in the ACA -- from a proposal to help people plan ahead and decide whether they want extraordinary measures to be taken to revive and sustain them near the end of their lives.

No it is not..... There are recent articles out that show Palin was exactly right and even Democrat's are admitting it. They were not "people planning ahead for themselves" you complete brainwashed liberal fool, they were the GOVERNMENT making the decision.

Recent articles? I'm usually pretty up on media articles. I must have missed those. Any links you would like to provide?

I like to think of death panels as retroactive abortion panels. These people haven't contacted your mother, have they?

[_Res Ipsa]

Hi Brad,

I've worked with a few different versions of forms, but all the ones I've seen meet your expectations for what a form should look like. They sequentially list various cares or extraordinary measures and then offer a description. This is followed by a place to check whether a person wants it or not and several lines to explain circumstances or indicate special instructions. Usually there are pictures as well. At the end of the form, there are blank sections to add any additional considerations. I can't see why a preplanned end of life counseling would deviate from that model.

The population I work with have cognitive deficits, usually related either to developmental disability or traumatic brain injury. My job is to explain these issues in a way that they can understand and provide meaningful input on. Many people with cognitive disabilities are enmeshed in a community where they can see these cares first hand - they might know someone with a g-tube for example - so they sometimes understand them better than people without disabilities.

There are definitely ways that counseling on these issues can be done well or poorly, but it should be completely uncontroversial as to whether it should be included in a sound health coverage package. It improves autonomy, quality of life, and saves money. That people can manufacture controversy over radical misrepresentation of even that is disturbing.

Thanks, EAllusion. The few for my state that I found were not as detailed as you describe. I'm glad there are better forms in use. The ones you describe sound great.

I agree that it should be completely uncontroversial. Sadly, there are always those who want to create controversy by spreading misinformation.

[_Kittens_and_Jesus]

Both of you make excellent points. I certainly would like to reserve the right to terminate myself if I was facing protracted pain from an incurable illness, and I would like the medical system to assist me in this termination.

I agree as one who was denied the right to refuse extreme body altering, though life saving surgery.

I spent two years or so sick as hell while doctors tried to treat my debilitating abdominal pain. I once found a treatment that worked but developed an allergy to it.

Eventually they told me that they had to remove my colon and replace it with a huge piece of intestine sticking out of my stomach with a bag attached to it, or I would die within a day or so.

I told them to let me die.

I told them to let me die because I would no longer be able to participate in the high impact martial art that I practice. I told them to let me die because I didn't want to like as a freak of medical science. I told them to let me die because it was my body and I would rather be dead than not have the body I had worked so hard to create through exercise and discipline.

They immediately brought in a research psychologist who I had never met that told me he would sign papers saying that I was not in the right state of mind to make such a decision.

He did so and they forced the surgery upon me.

Since then I have become overweight and weak. I'm still sick all the time, but I'll live.

There isn't a day that goes by that I don't wish that they had just let nature take its course.

There isn't a day that goes by that I don't think about killing myself, but I just don't have it in me to do it. Too much pain and anger left behind.

[_beastie]

Kittens,

I can't imagine what you must endure. I'm so sorry that you've had to experience this.