Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon

[_ludwigm]

The phrase in the Book of Mormon....'and it came to pass' is the translation into English of a single glyph on the Gold plates

You are one of my favorite posters here, James, but if you don't mind I'd like to see some evidence from the original reformed Egyptian that this is in fact the case.

As in:

1) Please show me a reformed Egyptian glyph
And 2) Please show me independent research that corroborates that glyph was translated correctly into the term you use.

Thanks, and ever watching the Apocalrock,

AB

You've overtaken me with the time zone...

To 1)
- Do we know if Reformed Egyptian uses glyphs, syllables or caractors?

- How can one person (or an U&T, or a stone) transliterate the pronounciation of curelom, cumom, ziff, sheum, which were written by glyphs? With the help of IPA?
IPA: pronounce it as ...

My comment will appear two pages before the first unread, and nobody will read, but don't care!

[_Nightlion]

Grindael, as wrong as they BOTH were about the real hill Ramah,one thing is truly proven, and that is Oliver Cowdery never contributed a word to the Book of Mormon.

[_Spanner]

A ready example is the duration of the Trojan War. Homer says it lasted ten years, but Thucydides saw this was, in terms of the warfare of his day, impossible, and concluded that it had to be an exaggeration

Yikes, I almost forgot about this one! This thread is mounting so much devastating evidence, it's hard to keep up.

My support of Dr. W's post came with being fully aware of the apologist position that numbers are exaggerated in the Book of Mormon. This is one of Brandt's proofs that it is an ancient text. Whether it was a million or a thousand, the probability of two lone survivors duking it out is very low, and if that's fabricated too, along with the dramatic gasping for breath with severed head -- well, hey, we can pretty much throw out all the details and say there was an important war and the general result was X. But at that point, we have to wonder what clues we must take at face value to inform the apologist that the battle rings true.

Anyway, your statement here I quoted is devastating to the apologist position, and I mean devastating. The reason why, is that the apologist spin "history as fabrication" as an ancient practice for the sake of establishing the truth of an alleged ancient document -- with all the irony in that one -- and chastise modern readers for the "presentism" of expecting history to be reported objectively as we understand it. Your quote here demonstrates that ancient historians were able to ascertain history objectively, there is no issue of incommensurability here.

If I had 1/1000th the knowledge you have of history, the apologists wouldn't dare crawl out of their holes. It speaks to your compassion that you restrain yourselves, and allow them to have their day. You're a better man than I am.

So, the fact that the Book of Mormon is utter bollocks is proof of its Hebraic antiquity, because ancient Hebrews were known for writing utter bollocks.

Sounds good to me!

[_Spanner]

Or if Cowdery had the book and knew it and helped Joseph formulate the Book of Mormon. Remember, all we have is Cowdery's own words that he was translating. But what WAS really going on? There is no verifiable outside source or control over what they were rally doing at all. If Cowdery was in on it, so to speak, there is reason why he would never have admitted it. It would have destroyed his own reputation. He couldn't have gotten work since he was so dishonest. So yes the "official" discussion and description is Joseph dictating to Oliver, but what actually did happen, we can never know.

Well, since Ollie also claims that he was visited by P. J. and J., I tend to think that he was pretty much inonit.

How could Oliver not be "in on it"!

Joseph predicted his arrival as scribe. The pace of translation moved from snail's pace to gallop after he took over, Oliver reported a number of personal angelic visitations (as did Sydney), Oliver seems to have assisted David Whitmer to have his angelic visitation, Oliver assisted in the re-interpretation of the interpreters as the Urim and Thummim after 1835, and it goes on.

Oliver may be the conduit for the appearance of Late War in the Book of Mormon, as with View of the Hebrews. It may be more fruitful to look for links between Oliver and Late War.

[_ludwigm]

Would You (anybody) read the previous page?

My moderated comment appears there... It is not worth to read, by moderation system.

[Guest]

On another note I would like to scold DrW for badly misrepresenting the last days of the Jaredites when million of them were destroyed as he wrongly supposed, in a single battle. Please read the last two chapters of Ether and realize that the saga stretched over twenty years where every man woman and child was compelled to arm themselves and do battle to survive. The dead bodies were left unburied and covered the land. The entire population was living a war survival mentality as their only means of support and living for all that time. After twenty millions mighty men with their women and children were killed the battles rage on for years and then four more years were taken just to gather every living soul into one camp or the other. So after twenty some odd years there were so few that they had to hunt out of the rocks more people to add to their armies. Then long battles raged over the entire range of their nation North of the narrow neck of land....today's Ecuador and the Gulf of Guayaquil. Coriantumr takes time to recover of his wounds four times. And while he is recovering the people are constantly at war killing one another.

We have no idea how many were engaged in the final week of battle when they dwindled down to fifty and then only the last two, Shiz and Coriantumr.

Earlier in the Jaredite story when the drought brought up the poisonous serpents the people followed the path of their animals who went South to escape and devoured them. No more Elephants, cureloms and cumoms or swine and a lot fewer horses no doubt.

Nightlion,

If you will re-read the posts you are referring to here, you will see that I described the final conflict between the two Jaredite forces as a series of battles, commented on the logistics required for such a series of battles involving individuals in their millions, and provided a quote from Ether 15 as support.

[_Mary]

Nightlion..the use of lion as figurative language is anachronistic in my opinion. Chris Johnson covers the subject of old versus new world animals in his presentation available on YouTube.


It really is worth a watch. Lots of interesting issues for consideration.

[_AlmaBound]

The phrase in the Book of Mormon....'and it came to pass' is the translation into English of a single glyph on the Gold plates

You are one of my favorite posters here, James, but if you don't mind I'd like to see some evidence from the original reformed Egyptian that this is in fact the case.

As in:

1) Please show me a reformed Egyptian glyph
And 2) Please show me independent research that corroborates that glyph was translated correctly into the term you use.

Thanks, and ever watching the Apocalrock,

AB

You've overtaken me with the time zone...

To 1)
- Do we know if Reformed Egyptian uses glyphs, syllables or caractors?

- How can one person (or an U&T, or a stone) transliterate the pronounciation of curelom, cumom, ziff, sheum, which were written by glyphs? With the help of IPA?
IPA: pronounce it as ...

My comment will appear two pages before the first unread, and nobody will read, but don't care!

I read your comment, and your thoughts above speak right to the point.

[_grindael]

Grindael, as wrong as they BOTH were about the real hill Ramah,one thing is truly proven, and that is Oliver Cowdery never contributed a word to the Book of Mormon.

Whatever you say, Nightlion. Of course you must be right and Cowdery wrong because? You were there and he was not? Didn't have Jo's help writing up their little 1834 fiction? Actually, no one really knows if Cowdery did or did not contribute to the Book of Mormon. But we do know that Jo AND Oliver wrote the 1834 History which contradicts Jo's 1832 History and his 1839 History, the Book of Commandments, and various other historical accounts. I'd say that Jo and Ollie are batting 1000 at being wrong.... about everything, including angelic visits and real gold plates buried by one Moroni... or Nephi if you believe Jo's 1839 correction.

[_Fence Sitter]

..

- Do we know if Reformed Egyptian uses glyphs, syllables or caractors?

- How can one person (or an U&T, or a stone) transliterate the pronounciation of curelom, cumom, ziff, sheum, which were written by glyphs? With the help of IPA?
IPA: pronounce it as ...

My comment will appear two pages before the first unread, and nobody will read, but don't care!

I always have difficulty with differences between transcribe, transliterate & translate.

Wouldn't the question make more sense as:

How can one person (or an U&T, or a stone) transcribe the pronounciation of curelom, cumom, ziff, sheum, which were written by glyphs?

Because glyphs carry meaning but not sound?