maklelan wrote:LittleNipper wrote:Jesus clearly believed that Noah was a real person and that the Flood really happened.
Not only is it not clear that what is contained in the New Testament is a verbatim account of Jesus' very words, but the rhetorical use of traditions like these does not necessarily indicate the speaker thought of the traditions as historical. I think it's likely that the author of the New Testament texts believed it, but to say that they "clearly" did is going well beyond what reason and the evidence indicate.
LittleNipper wrote:Through Christ were all thing created. That means that Jesus is God. You are not fooling anyone --- Mormon or not.
Oh, because YHWH created all things and then it says "through Christ all things were created." That means Jesus is God. Makes sense, except for the fact that agency in Greek and Hebrew, just like in English, is easily transferable and ambiguous. 1 Kgs 6:14 says Solomon built the temple, but I think it would be just as accurate (or more so) to so that through numerous workers the temple was built. This doesn't mean that Solomon was numerous workers, this is just an illustration of how agency is communicable. No one with any modicum of awareness of how language and rhetoric works could ever arrive at the utterly asinine notion that because the text says all things were created through Christ, Jesus must be God. That's just childish eisegesis.
Matt 13:23 has Christ say to his disciples, "I have foretold you all things." Since you seem to be taking "all things" to literally mean "all things" contained within all reality, you must interpret this text to mean that Christ foretold to his disciples every event that would ever happen from their day to the end of creation, irrespective of how minuscule in importance or scope. My clipping my toenails after my shower this morning. My daughter having a nightmare last night. A little kid in Vanuatu going swimming. A middle-aged man in Athens waiting outside a government building in the morning to ask about work. A woman in Fraile Muerto signing up to attend the university in Montevideo. Is that how you interpret it, or do you acknowledge the rhetorical use of the New Testament's use of "all"?
Let's look at another New Testament text. Acts 2:5 says that men were dwelling at Jerusalem from "every nation under heaven." Do you really believe every nation under heaven was represented in Jerusalem at the time of Pentecost? There were people from China, Australia, the South Pacific, the Amazon, North America, the British Isles, and every other nation on the planet all dwelling in Jerusalem? Is that really how you interpret the author's use of "every," or do you acknowledge the rhetorical use of "every" in the New Testament?
Show me I'm not fooling anyone, Nipper. Show me you know what you're doing here, rather than just burping up ad hoc assertions and insults.
Consider the events reported in Acts 2:5-11, the miracle at Pentecost ---- there is Scriptural clarification of what is meant when the writer speaks of every nation. The nations are listed and we are limited to JEWS. These would be the only nations where there were practicing Jews.
And there were dwelling at Jerusalem
Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galileans? And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.
In MARK 13:23 Christ say to his disciples, "I have foretold you all things." Since you seem to be taking "all things" --- literally... Again the clarification/perameters is found right there in the scripture.
9 “You must be on your guard. You will be handed over to the local councils and flogged in the synagogues. On account of me you will stand before governors and kings as witnesses to them. 10 And the gospel must first be preached to all nations. 11 Whenever you are arrested and brought to trial, do not worry beforehand about what to say. Just say whatever is given you at the time, for it is not you speaking, but the Holy Spirit. 12 “Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child. Children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. 13 Everyone will hate you because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 “When you see ‘the abomination that causes desolation’ standing where it does not belong—let the reader understand—then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 15 Let no one on the housetop go down or enter the house to take anything out. 16 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 17 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 18 Pray that this will not take place in winter, 19 because those will be days of distress unequaled from the beginning, when God created the world, until now—and never to be equaled again. 20 “If the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would survive. But for the sake of the elect, whom he has chosen, he has shortened them. 21 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘Look, there he is!’ do not believe it. 22 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 23 So be on your guard; I have told you everything ahead of time. 22for false Christs and false prophets will arise, and will show signs and wonders, in order to lead astray, if possible, the elect. 23"
But take heed; behold, I have told you everything in advance.1 Kgs 6:14 says Solomon built the temple. God told David not to built the temple. Solomon had visiting dignitaries who gave him the cedar, silver, and the gold. Solomon was obviously the one God placed in charge and the plans came through Solomon. Solomon had the final ok.
The Bible is what I use to clarify the Bible.
