Botched Rescue in Boise

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_cwald
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Re: Botched Rescue in Boise

Post by _cwald »

Mayan Elephant wrote:
mentalgymnast wrote:We naturally want to make things complex and convoluted to the point that we then have a difficult time coming to terms with what we see.

Regards,
MG


quite possibly, the dumbest comment ever. ironically, this is also the foundation of the Boise Rescue, the so-called essays, and the current marketing strategy of the church.


Yeah.

Lying is intentionally deceiving others... There are many other forms of lying. When we speak untruths, we are guilty of lying. We can also intentionally deceive others by a gesture or a look, by silence, or by telling only part of the truth. Whenever we lead people in any way to believe something that is not true, we are not being honest.

People use many excuses for being dishonest. People lie to protect themselves and to have others think well of them...

These excuses and many more are given as reasons for dishonesty. To the Lord, there are no acceptable reasons. When we excuse ourselves, we cheat ourselves and the Spirit of God ceases to be with us. We become more and more unrighteous.


https://www.LDS.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-31-honesty?lang=eng
"Jesus gave us the gospel, but Satan invented church. It takes serious evil to formalize faith into something tedious and then pile guilt on anyone who doesn’t participate enthusiastically." - Robert Kirby

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_honorentheos
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Re: Botched Rescue in Boise

Post by _honorentheos »

mentalgymnast wrote:
honorentheos wrote:What exactly is it that was said that isn't best seen as the eternal tug-of-war that takes place in human cultures?


Perhaps that the Son of God was to return to the earth as a resurrected being and take over the reigns of the 'kingdom' in the latter days/times.

Again, I think Kishkumen's elegant response regarding historic context applies. The historic Jesus hiding in the New Testament spoke of the coming of the Son of Man as imminent, and it's debatable as to how he saw himself in this. Paul saw the last days as being his day. It seems every generation sees themselves living in the latter days until they're grand parenting the one they believe must be it. It's all part of the churning and tension within religions.

mentalgymnast wrote:What do you think about the preponderance of D&C scriptures that were used in the Boise Rescue? Most of them dealt specifically with what to look for in regards to the apostate conditions that are prevalent in some areas of the church today. Keys of the kingdom, authority residing in Joseph and the ordained leaders, callings to prophethood being known to and approved by the church through common consent, etc.

You focused on two New Testament scriptures as though these were the most important ones to look at?

I feel I failed to make my point effectively. For every pro-establishment scripture in the standard works there are a dozen that describe a person experiencing the divine and being awakened to how spiritually dead the established religious body actually is. How could it not be, given how people work? The more resistant to change a body becomes, the more it favors stasis, the less alive it inevitably will be.

I focused on the New Testament scriptures because they allowed me to point out that the ideas of an established religious body decrying false Christs and prophets in the latter days isn't something we can associate with our day as being unique. Instead, it's always been going on, and the idea we are living the latter days when these things were supposedly prophesied to occur is missing what those scriptures were actually saying: They were saying then what Oaks and Turley told the Boise group. The fact they were dealing with false prophets and anti-christs must mean they were living in the last days back then.

If that point becomes clear, one should already expect to see what the D&C scriptures record happening with Joseph and the early Mormon church. When you have a Charismatic religion encouraging people to seek out spiritual encounters, it's inevitably some are going to end up challenging the authority of the establishment leadership. Natural response: have a "revelation" that only the establishment's spiritual encounters could be valid for the Church as a whole.

Think about that for a moment. You have a body telling people they can experience God first hand, which people seek to do, and then when they come back and say they've been successful...and it's left them thinking the established body is actually dead in comparison. And the body says, "Well, must have been of the devil because we're not a spiritually dead body. Not because we can manifest spiritual gifts but because old revelations defined a process and we are following this process. You aren't following the process, so....Satan."

Is there any better definition of being effectively dead than being in a complete state of stasis?

So, to recap, what the D&C sections reveal is a dynamic, early church where charismatic experience is vital to everyone. Some of these experiences challenge the leadership because they take some of the leadership's power and ability to claim something unique away. The leadership forges God's signature on a declaration that only the leadership's charismatic experiences are valid for the organization as a whole. And repeat, repeat, repeat until the leadership has died and been replaced. New leadership fails to have actual charismatic experiences to share with the people. People feel they are missing something in their life. People are told to seek out charismatic experiences or realize the scriptures are all about such experiences. People return claiming they've had such an experience. Leadership says that can't be because the manual said it can't be. Kicks people out who want living religion.

Again, drilling a little deeper for you: If you look at the history of Section 20, which was written over DECADES, it practically illustrates the irony involved in Oaks' and Turley's response. Seeing two old guys saying "This is how the Church works and anything different can't be from God." using scriptures that were evolving, being rewritten, etc., shows that the modern LDS church doesn't understand it's youth anymore. You can practically hear them saying, "Quit running around, you damn kids! We're trying to watch Matlock!"
mentalgymnast wrote:I found the D&C scriptures to be directly applicable more so than the New Testament scriptures although, as you say, we might find inference and/or application in those also. As I mentioned earlier in the thread, and I'll stick to it, I think that Oaks and Turley followed a better game plan this time around. Stick to the restoration of authority, keys, and rightful prophethood/leadership. Anything else and they venture down rabbit holes in which there is no clear destination or ending that suits everyone.

Regards,
MG

Enjoy your dead religion, MG.
Last edited by Guest on Fri Jun 19, 2015 3:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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_SteelHead
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Re: Botched Rescue in Boise

Post by _SteelHead »

Honortheos wins the interwebz for the day.
It is better to be a warrior in a garden, than a gardener at war.

Some of us, on the other hand, actually prefer a religion that includes some type of correlation with reality.
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_Tom
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Re: Botched Rescue in Boise

Post by _Tom »

robuchan wrote:I'm a little skeptical that textual criticism of New Testament is being taught at BYU at anything beyond a very superficial level, especially 30+ years ago when Turley would have been doing law school.

It seems that some sort of proficiency in Greek would be required to take the course. In addition to Welch, Richard L. Anderson and S. Kent Brown may have been Turley's instructor.

Regarding Luke 22:43-44, I've come across several articles on the subject (four by BYU scholars) that might be of interest to some here:

T. Wayment, "A New Transcription of P.Oxy. 2383 (P69)," Novum Testamentum 50 (2008): 351–57.
C. Clivaz, "Some Remarks on Thomas A. Wayment, 'A New Transcription of P. Oxy. 2383 (P69),'" Novum Testamentum 52 (2010): 83-87 (Clivaz critiques Wayment's article, suggesting that Wayment's scholarship is influenced by "his theological concerns").
T. Wayment, "P.Oxy. 2383 (P69) One More Time," Novum Testamentum 54 (2012): 288–92 (Wayment responds to Clivaz's critique).
M. Pope, "A Closer Look: Luke 22:43–44 and Questions of Interpretation," Studies in the Bible and Antiquity 6 (2014): 127-33.
L. Blumell, "Luke 22:43–44: An Anti-Docetic Interpolation or an Apologetic Omission?," TC: A Journal of Biblical Textual Criticism 19 (2014): 1-35.
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_Res Ipsa
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Re: Botched Rescue in Boise

Post by _Res Ipsa »

SteelHead wrote:Honortheos wins the interwebz for the day.


Tough call. How about jointly with Symmachus (in another thread).
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_SteelHead
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Re: Botched Rescue in Boise

Post by _SteelHead »

Yeah Symmachus is taking them to the woodshed.
It is better to be a warrior in a garden, than a gardener at war.

Some of us, on the other hand, actually prefer a religion that includes some type of correlation with reality.
~Bill Hamblin
_Gadianton
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Re: Botched Rescue in Boise

Post by _Gadianton »

Is this evidence against Hamblin's position that the MI should be doing something about Jenkins's articles on Book of Mormon Geography?

Lately, it seems like the Church, Oaks in particular who is the leader of the Oaks faction, draws on Turley for matters of apologetic intervention. Couldn't Oaks call someone up from the Interpreter to do the job?

It seems the brethren are far more aware lately of what's going on with critics then they have been in the past and the need to respond. The fact that Oaks takes Turley to Boise suggests that it was decided that responding to Jenkins isn't prudent.
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_mentalgymnast
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Re: Botched Rescue in Boise

Post by _mentalgymnast »

honorentheos wrote:
I focused on the New Testament scriptures because they allowed me to point out that the ideas of an established religious body decrying false Christs and prophets in the latter days isn't something we can associate with our day as being unique. Instead, it's always been going on, and the idea we are living the latter days when these things were supposedly prophesied to occur is missing what those scriptures were actually saying: They were saying then what Oaks and Turley told the Boise group. The fact they were dealing with false prophets and anti-christs must mean they were living in the last days back then.


Granted.

honorentheos wrote:If that point becomes clear, one should already expect to see what the D&C scriptures record happening with Joseph and the early Mormon church. When you have a Charismatic religion encouraging people to seek out spiritual encounters, it's inevitably some are going to end up challenging the authority of the establishment leadership.


Granted.

honorentheos wrote:Natural response: have a "revelation" that only the establishment's spiritual encounters could be valid for the Church as a whole.


I'm not quite sure what you mean here. The Snufferites aren't claiming that their "spiritual encounters" are for the whole church. As I said earlier, where they are running into problems is with criticizing the brethren's claim to apostleship/prophethood to direct and/or maintain the Church.

honorentheos wrote:Think about that for a moment. You have a body telling people they can experience God first hand, which people seek to do, and then when they come back and say they've been successful...and it's left them thinking the established body is actually dead in comparison.


Here's the thing though. These folks can't know whether or not others...non-Snufferites...are having experiences within the church that they would consider to be spiritual in nature. Being witness to miracles. Being touched by the HG. Feeling the 'burning in the bosom', etc. Then for them to claim that they are the only ones that have access to the 'heavenly gift' is at its core rather exclusionary. It sets them up for a 'light' and a claim their fellow saints are in someway defective and/or less 'spiritual' because they haven't had the same 'garden variety' experience that they have. They don't/can't know this for a fact. And don't/can't know that the experiences that others are having do not fall within the spectrum of heavenly gifts. Paul described the gifts that folks are given.

Not all are given the gift of 'seeing the face of God'. I do think that the Snufferites need a platform in order to share their views. A platform to share what they believe to be their spiritual experiences. That can even be at church, on Sunday. But I don't see where it is in the best interests of the community of saints for the Snufferites to in turn criticize and/or deface the callings...and possible experiences...of their ecclesiastical leaders. As though THEY somehow hold some sort of monopoly in regards to 'the spiritual'.

honorentheos wrote:And the body says, "Well, must have been of the devil because we're not a spiritually dead body. Not because we can manifest spiritual gifts...


What are some of those spiritual gifts that you are referring to that are not manifest either publicly or privately within the church? Shall we stick with the gifts that the Apostle Paul refers to?

Romans 12:3-8
1 Corinthians 12-14
Ephesians 4:7-13

honorentheos wrote:...but because old revelations defined a process and we are following this process. You aren't following the process, so....Satan."


Again, I think where the Snufferites are running into problems is by making accusations that the leadership of the church is no longer in a position by which they can exercise the keys of the kingdom and that the keys...therefore...are no longer operative. Temple ordinances. Kaput. Ordinances of salvation for the living. Kaput. Authority to administer the Sacrament in local units of the church. Kaput. Etc.

honorentheos wrote:Is there any better definition of being effectively dead than being in a complete state of stasis?


I don't think that you have come close to demonstrating that the church is in a position of stasis or non-growth.

honorentheos wrote:Again, drilling a little deeper for you: If you look at the history of Section 20, which was written over DECADES, it practically illustrates the irony involved in Oaks' and Turley's response. Seeing two old guys saying "This is how the Church works and anything different can't be from God." using scriptures that were evolving, being rewritten, etc., shows that the modern LDS church doesn't understand it's youth anymore.


The fact that scriptures have evolved and have been added to doesn't have anything to do with the outcome and/or truth of said scriptures. Section 20 pretty much lays it all out as far as the institutional church and the purposes of its creation/operations. Whether or not the Section came in segments and was later cut and pasted together really has no bearing on its truth value and/or application in the modern church of which Elder Oaks and Turley are a part. I'm not sure why you're attempting to say that the methodology behind scriptural canonization has any direct bearing on the scripture's viability or application.

Granted, yes, folks in different partitions of time have each had their own 'hope' that the end times would be in their day. It was apparently so in the time of Joseph Smith and the early church. We have now come to a point where we have seen the track record of these 'hopes' of the end times and the second coming of Christ where we are more accepting of the pronouncements given by which we are told that 'no man knows' when that time will be except the Father. Why others thought they could supersede the knowledge of God and His timing...who knows? But they did. I suppose it's human. Elder Packer in a recent conference, however, seemed to be a bit more open and accepting to the council received previously that 'no man knows'.

honorentheos wrote:Enjoy your dead religion, MG.


I think it is in the eye of the beholder as Symmachus has been promoting on another thread.

Regards,
MG
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Re: Botched Rescue in Boise

Post by _Kishkumen »

Tom wrote:It seems that some sort of proficiency in Greek would be required to take the course. In addition to Welch, Richard L. Anderson and S. Kent Brown may have been Turley's instructor.

Regarding Luke 22:43-44, I've come across several articles on the subject (four by BYU scholars) that might be of interest to some here:

T. Wayment, "A New Transcription of P.Oxy. 2383 (P69)," Novum Testamentum 50 (2008): 351–57.
C. Clivaz, "Some Remarks on Thomas A. Wayment, 'A New Transcription of P. Oxy. 2383 (P69),'" Novum Testamentum 52 (2010): 83-87 (Clivaz critiques Wayment's article, suggesting that Wayment's scholarship is influenced by "his theological concerns").
T. Wayment, "P.Oxy. 2383 (P69) One More Time," Novum Testamentum 54 (2012): 288–92 (Wayment responds to Clivaz's critique).
M. Pope, "A Closer Look: Luke 22:43–44 and Questions of Interpretation," Studies in the Bible and Antiquity 6 (2014): 127-33.
L. Blumell, "Luke 22:43–44: An Anti-Docetic Interpolation or an Apologetic Omission?," TC: A Journal of Biblical Textual Criticism 19 (2014): 1-35.


Thanks, Tom. I know some of those fellows and they are really sharp. It will be interesting to see what they have to say, but I can't understand how one gets around the fact that the text was already there in English to influence Joseph Smith. By the way, all of these were written long after Turley was in law school and I know a couple of these scholars weren't even undergrads when he was in law school.
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Re: Botched Rescue in Boise

Post by _Blixa »

Coming late to the party once again. I really have to thank Tom and Symmachus for the Turley discussion. That's given me food for thought.

Anyway, I guess I'm not surprised that two lawyers made intellectually simplistic and emotionally manipulative arguments to the jury.("Respected academics?" No. Not that the phrase means much, but their arguments were not just unscholarly, they were pedagogically contemptuous and contemptible.)

I also found Fencesitter's observation about fighting a digital war with analog technology intriguing, especially given the struggle over charisma, spiritual gifts and personal revelation in all of this. The Pentacost was not a managerial training session.
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