mentalgymnast wrote: honorentheos wrote:What exactly is it that was said that isn't best seen as the eternal tug-of-war that takes place in human cultures?
Perhaps that the Son of God was to return to the earth as a resurrected being and take over the reigns of the 'kingdom' in the latter days/times.
Again, I think Kishkumen's elegant response regarding historic context applies. The historic Jesus hiding in the New Testament spoke of the coming of the Son of Man as imminent, and it's debatable as to how he saw himself in this. Paul saw the last days as being his day. It seems every generation sees themselves living in the latter days until they're grand parenting the one they believe must be it. It's all part of the churning and tension within religions.
mentalgymnast wrote:What do you think about the preponderance of D&C scriptures that were used in the Boise Rescue? Most of them dealt specifically with what to look for in regards to the apostate conditions that are prevalent in some areas of the church today. Keys of the kingdom, authority residing in Joseph and the ordained leaders, callings to prophethood being known to and approved by the church through common consent, etc.
You focused on two New Testament scriptures as though these were the most important ones to look at?
I feel I failed to make my point effectively. For every pro-establishment scripture in the standard works there are a dozen that describe a person experiencing the divine and being awakened to how spiritually dead the established religious body actually is. How could it not be, given how people work? The more resistant to change a body becomes, the more it favors stasis, the less alive it inevitably will be.
I focused on the New Testament scriptures because they allowed me to point out that the ideas of an established religious body decrying false Christs and prophets in the latter days isn't something we can associate with our day as being unique. Instead, it's always been going on, and the idea we are living the latter days when these things were supposedly prophesied to occur is missing what those scriptures were actually saying: They were saying then what Oaks and Turley told the Boise group. The fact they were dealing with false prophets and anti-christs must mean they were living in the last days back then.
If that point becomes clear, one should already expect to see what the D&C scriptures record happening with Joseph and the early Mormon church. When you have a Charismatic religion encouraging people to seek out spiritual encounters, it's inevitably some are going to end up challenging the authority of the establishment leadership. Natural response: have a "revelation" that only the establishment's spiritual encounters could be valid for the Church as a whole.
Think about that for a moment. You have a body telling people they can experience God first hand, which people seek to do, and then when they come back and say they've been successful...and it's left them thinking the established body is actually dead in comparison. And the body says, "Well, must have been of the devil because we're not a spiritually dead body. Not because we can manifest spiritual gifts but because old revelations defined a process and we are following this process. You aren't following the process, so....Satan."
Is there any better definition of being effectively dead than being in a complete state of stasis?
So, to recap, what the D&C sections reveal is a dynamic, early church where charismatic experience is vital to everyone. Some of these experiences challenge the leadership because they take some of the leadership's power and ability to claim something unique away. The leadership forges God's signature on a declaration that only the leadership's charismatic experiences are valid for the organization as a whole. And repeat, repeat, repeat until the leadership has died and been replaced. New leadership fails to have actual charismatic experiences to share with the people. People feel they are missing something in their life. People are told to seek out charismatic experiences or realize the scriptures are all about such experiences. People return claiming they've had such an experience. Leadership says that can't be because the manual said it can't be. Kicks people out who want living religion.
Again, drilling a little deeper for you: If you look at the history of Section 20, which was written over DECADES, it practically illustrates the irony involved in Oaks' and Turley's response. Seeing two old guys saying "This is how the Church works and anything different can't be from God." using scriptures that were evolving, being rewritten, etc., shows that the modern LDS church doesn't understand it's youth anymore. You can practically hear them saying, "Quit running around, you damn kids! We're trying to watch Matlock!"
mentalgymnast wrote:I found the D&C scriptures to be directly applicable more so than the New Testament scriptures although, as you say, we might find inference and/or application in those also. As I mentioned earlier in the thread, and I'll stick to it, I think that Oaks and Turley followed a better game plan this time around. Stick to the restoration of authority, keys, and rightful prophethood/leadership. Anything else and they venture down rabbit holes in which there is no clear destination or ending that suits everyone.
Regards,
MG
Enjoy your dead religion, MG.