Dreamers denied

[_Markk]

Another child just came quickly to mind. The child of a low income mother. I first met her when she was 3 years old. When she smiled at me, all I could see was silver. Her entire mouth was filled with crowns. Why? Because Mom let her drink those fruit punch drinks that used to come in plastic bottles when she was a toddler and laid her down with a bottle in her mouth letting the sugary drink pool around her teeth. Why? Because Mom didn't know any better, she thought she was giving her fruit juice (also a nutritional no-no these days) and her baby liked those drinks. And they were cheap.

There you have a case of (through no real fault of her own) a mother who was ignorant regarding nutrition and dental health.

Worry about those children too, folks. They're right under your radar where you can't see them.

So the child should have been aborted? A lot of children grow up in ignorant environments by ignorant parents that are "okay."

Should we maybe have the government evaluate pregnant women and have a standard for abortion?

Not sure what your trying to say Jersey Girl.

[_Markk]

Jersey Girl wrote...

The fetus currently has no voice. The truth is that MEN made the laws that are in place. They chose to give women the right to decide what to do with the contents of their own body and how they view those contents.

Most the laws in place where women instigated...including Roe v. Wade. If I am wrong what rules made by men are you referring too? The attorneys that started the case if i read wiki correctly were women, Linda Coffee and Sarah Weddington.

Yes they gave the women the right to choose, and yes, the baby has no choice. I am not sure how you cam blame this on men...but o'well.

Jersey Girl wrote

The crux of my position hinges on this very sentence. Read it carefully.

If you find a way to mandate abstinence, let me know. Until then, you need to face the fact that some women don't use contraception, contraceptives fail, men fail women, and sometimes women fail themselves.

And as I stated, then you believe that becasue of these reasons, it is okay to abort a baby?

How come men fail women, and only sometime women fail themselves? Unless it is rape, it takes two, and as you wrote the women does have control of her body and can say no.

That's the complete truth of the matter.

In closing let me say this, too. There are folks in this country who would extend a compassionate hand to women who discover they've become pregnant due to rape and support their choice to terminate that pregnancy. Markkkk, that fetus did absolutely nothing to deserve that either. That fetus has the same right to survive as you believe any other fetus has the right to the same. We extend a compassionate hand to a victim of rape because we don't want her to suffer further.

The hard truth is that when women give birth to children they didn't want or didn't plan for, the trajectory of their life course will be thrown off course by an unplanned pregnancy, some (note I said SOME) of those women will suffer as well and so will their child should they give birth and raise them.

When we can produce a society that ACTS on their self proclaimed compassion for the unborn, by making adoption and counseling more accessible and compassionate towards women, when you can produce a religious right that puts it's combined money where it's combined mouth is and instead of condemning women for their choice to terminate and [i]take away their resources, and rushes in to embrace them and adopt their babies...then you'll have something going that could indeed change the plight of those women and their babies and effect real change in our society.

Until then, we've got what we've got. A safe and medical way for a woman to change her circumstances. You haven't walked a mile in their moccasins and the truth is that you never will.


And women frequently suffer no matter what choice they make.

I can't take the right to choose away from another woman when I, as a part of this society, am not totally coming through for her should she choose to give birth, raise the child or adopt. I have taught her children adopted or not. I have taught both foreign and domestic adoptees. This past August I went to the celebration of life for an adopted child that I taught. That was a first for me that I hope to never repeat. I was amazed at the generosity and grace that the adoptive parents showed to the birth mother. That extension of grace will stay with me forever and so will the memory of him. He was a high spirited and vibrant boy with everything going for him, even when he was 4. I can't imagine a world without his influence in it. But I know that they had access to resources that many women lack and not everyone cherishes a new life or the birth mother who gave that life.

Well that's enough of me and my ideas here. I'm more sensitive to this topic than any other topic that ever comes up on this board for discussion. It doesn't make me angry, it breaks my heart. I've said everything I'm ever going to say about it.

Departing the thread now.

I have a adopted sister, who's mother chose not to abort, and I am grateful for that. And we can come up with emotional stories for both sides, I get that. But the reality is that baby's are dying, in the name of choice, and that a hard line to swallow, at least for me.

I understand this is a tough topic, and I understand why you don't really want to discuss it, it is not easy for me either having been involved with choices.

take care
MG

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

But the reality is that baby's are dying, in the name of choice, and that a hard line to swallow, at least for me.

Yeah, and the fact is a drug addicted Mexican woman gave birth to 11 kids here in the states by 8 different men. All of her children were and are wards of the state, with 7 of the 11 being the victims of fetal alcohol syndrome. They're costing the taxpayers millions and will cost the taxpayers millions more because she's pro-life. Most of her kids have been condemned to a lifetime of suffering and will be a huge burden to our society.

How do I know this?

I tried fostering one, but his issues were so severe we had to hand him over to a group home because what he needed was far beyond what we could provide in terms of professional counseling and oversight.

That kid and our country would've been far better off had she aborted the blastula that was forming in her womb for what will be a millionth of the cost to everyone else.

- Doc

[_Markk]

But the reality is that baby's are dying, in the name of choice, and that a hard line to swallow, at least for me.

Yeah, and the fact is a drug addicted Mexican woman gave birth to 11 kids here in the states by 8 different men. All of her children were and are wards of the state, with 7 of the 11 being the victims of fetal alcohol syndrome. They're costing the taxpayers millions and will cost the taxpayers millions more because she's pro-life. Most of her kids have been condemned to a lifetime of suffering and will be a huge burden to our society.

How do I know this?

I tried fostering one, but his issues were so severe we had to hand him over to a group home because what he needed was far beyond what we could provide in terms of professional counseling and oversight.

That kid and our country would've been far better off had she aborted the blastula that was forming in her womb for what will be a millionth of the cost to everyone else.

- Doc

I have no doubt you honestly believe that.

And I am sure Mary Jo Kopechne parents believe Ted Kennedy should have been, aborted. Or that the doctor that abused all the Olympians should have been aborted. How about Joseph Smith, maybe we should do a poll? How about Tom Brady:)

Where do you start and stop...and who is the final court of arbitration?

On a lighter note...when I get the time I have to tell you about my cattle dog pups...9 months old next week... and vet bills of a few grand. They think they are super men.

[_Jersey Girl]

Another child just came quickly to mind. The child of a low income mother. I first met her when she was 3 years old. When she smiled at me, all I could see was silver. Her entire mouth was filled with crowns. Why? Because Mom let her drink those fruit punch drinks that used to come in plastic bottles when she was a toddler and laid her down with a bottle in her mouth letting the sugary drink pool around her teeth. Why? Because Mom didn't know any better, she thought she was giving her fruit juice (also a nutritional no-no these days) and her baby liked those drinks. And they were cheap.

There you have a case of (through no real fault of her own) a mother who was ignorant regarding nutrition and dental health.

Worry about those children too, folks. They're right under your radar where you can't see them.

So the child should have been aborted? A lot of children grow up in ignorant environments by ignorant parents that are "okay."

Should we maybe have the government evaluate pregnant women and have a standard for abortion?

Not sure what your trying to say Jersey Girl.

Can't you read my posts and think at the same time? I'm referring to the nature of low income families and the tendency towards low educations which is a prominent feature of low income families, which is exactly what some of the women who if they were forced to continue an unplanned pregnancy would become.

What is the purpose of this?

Should we maybe have the government evaluate pregnant women and have a standard for abortion?

If you want the effing government to evaluate pregnant women and have a standard for abortion. Really? Who is going to evaluate them and for what? Whose values are going to dictate the guidelines? Are you serious? Sit there and think long and hard about what you are suggesting. Because you're not far away from mandating that every pregnant woman be evaluated and judged as to whether or not she is fit to give birth.

Listen, to you and me, that's a baby. To many (including many women) that's essentially a parasite. You do NOT have the right to make people conform to your view of what constitutes the contents of a woman's uterus.

Lord drag me off this thread...

[_canpakes]

Should we maybe have the government evaluate pregnant women and have a standard for abortion?

If you want the effing government to evaluate pregnant women and have a standard for abortion. Really? Who is going to evaluate them and for what? Whose values are going to dictate the guidelines? Are you serious?

And what is good for the goose is good for the gander. If the government ever starts to qualify women for childbirth, then they'd best be doing the same for potential fathers. Let's make this nightmare scenario of government control twice as big.

The nation pretty much indiscriminately allows nearly anyone to generate a new life, purposefully or otherwise, so I'm not seeing that a right to abortion is so contradictory to this. Meanwhile, many of the same folks who would deny abortion under any circumstance would allow a man to rape a woman and then demand that she, if impregnated by that act, produce a child for him even against her own will, and to likely be that child's sole provider for decades. Strange how that sort of indentured servitude to a felon and his illegal actions is not a concern to them.

[_Markk]

Jersey Girl...Can't you read my posts and think at the same time? I'm referring to the nature of low income families and the tendency towards low educations which is a prominent feature of low income families, which is exactly what some of the women who if they were forced to continue an unplanned pregnancy would become.

What is the purpose of this?

I understand what you are saying, and why I ask that you believe it's okay... and moral to abort a baby of an uneducated person. Yet you are still prolife? Using that logic why not just off the uneducated person, or the mentally challenged...etc.

And I ask you what I asked Dr. C. Who decides...the uneducated person, that you believe can't make a decent decision, or as I asked Dr. C, should the government decide.

If you want the effing government to evaluate pregnant women and have a standard for abortion. Really? Who is going to evaluate them and for what? Whose values are going to dictate the guidelines? Are you serious? Sit there and think long and hard about what you are suggesting. Because you're not far away from mandating that every pregnant woman be evaluated and judged as to whether or not she is fit to give birth.

I was being facetious...are you really reading my posts.

Listen, to you and me, that's a baby. To many (including many women) that's essentially a parasite. You do NOT have the right to make people conform to your view of what constitutes the contents of a woman's uterus.

It is either a baby or not Jersey Girl, it really can't be a baby to one person, and yet something you flush down the toilet or suck the brains out for another. But then again our society is a emperors new clothes society...a white person can be black, a man can be a women, and a baby can be as discussed above.

Lord drag me off this thread...

It is a tough topic to deal with and look in the mirror on for many, myself included.

[_subgenius]

I dunno. I'm fairly certain blastulas aren't cognizant. I think that's what we're talking about, right?

- Doc

yeah, except you seem to infer that lack-of-cognizant is the justification for killing a person....because allegedly that circumstance makes some thing a some person.

[_subgenius]

Defining cognizant isn't necessary to the judgement. It's not necessary to the law itself.

Agreed. So the poster's point about "cognizant" is either irrelevant, absurd, or both.

And yes, it's ultimately a woman's right to choose.

That is arbitrary and arguable...so its not ultimately. Currently, under some circumstances, a woman has the privilege to choose...but that is hardly a "right" and it will likely progress to a more reasonable circumstance.

Are you opposed to abortion in cases of rape?

Irrelevant. You are trying to argue the exception instead of the rule. Either abortion kills a human or it does not...either abortion usurps an unborn person of right(s) or it does not.
Given that "rape" is a moving target these days and the fact that many women have "chosen" to keep a child that resulted from a "rape" (legally defined or otherwise) does not create a value for that pregnancy or that baby. Either the human created by fertilizing an egg has value or it does not.

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

I dunno. I'm fairly certain blastulas aren't cognizant. I think that's what we're talking about, right?

- Doc

yeah, except you seem to infer that lack-of-cognizant is the justification for killing a person....because allegedly that circumstance makes some thing a some person.

People kill people all the time. I don't know why you're so wrapped around the axel over a small mass of cells.

What's more immoral? Aborting a clump of cells, or allowing that clump to become a baby and then abandoning it to the whims of the world? I think it's far more cruel to allow something to come into existence that is unwanted and mistreated ensuring a lifetime of misery and struggle.

You're ok with that? And if not, what do you propose as a presumable pro-lifer to ensure that a human life has a good life?

- Doc