What is an anti-Mormon?

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_grindael
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Re: What is an anti-Mormon?

Post by _grindael »

The reference you gave about Joseph offering to pay for the damages to the Expositor was from John Taylor, who is not the most reliable when it comes to accuracy on those events. He was extremely traumatized by what happened at Carthage and was very jaded about how Ford handled it. He therefore is very critical of Ford, and only defends Joseph at every turn. It was written years later and the Church Historian, (George A. Smith) wasn't very honest either, and changed many of Smith's diary entries when they drafted Joseph's history. All of that needs to be assessed when one uses such accounts. In his letter on the 22nd, Joseph did allude to "making things right", but didn't go so far as to say he would pay for anything. (That would be an admission of guilt and he could be sued or serve jail time for it) and any lawyer would have told him not to admit to anything before a trial. So his admitting wrongdoing was not in his best interest and anyone would have done the same in that situation. But Smith didn't think he was wrong as that letter attests.

If you really want to be taken seriously, then you need to know what you are talking about, and stop going to FAIRMORMON and quoting their BS. Buying that book won't help you, there are no footnotes as to where they got the quote from, I found it on my own.

But believe what you will, I can only present the evidence and people have to make up their own minds as to its validity or relevance or importance to the discussion.
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_grindael
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Re: What is an anti-Mormon?

Post by _grindael »

Taylor even called the Dr. who HELPED HIM with his wounds a "butcher", and never paid him for his services. He was paid some pittance years later when the Dr. brought it up ($1 as I recall). That is how jaded Taylor was towards any non Mormons at the time and afterwards. For all the "butchery", Taylor lived even though he was wounded very, very badly. Instead of being grateful to the man who helped him, he chose to slander him.
Last edited by Guest on Fri Jun 08, 2018 3:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Riding on a speeding train; trapped inside a revolving door;
Lost in the riddle of a quatrain; Stuck in an elevator between floors.
One focal point in a random world can change your direction:
One step where events converge may alter your perception.
_Maksutov
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Re: What is an anti-Mormon?

Post by _Maksutov »

grindael wrote:The reference you gave about Joseph offering to pay for the damages to the Expositor was from John Taylor, who is not the most reliable when it comes to accuracy on those events. He was extremely traumatized by what happened at Carthage and was very jaded about how Ford handled it. He therefore is very critical of Ford, and only defends Joseph at every turn. It was written years later and the Church Historian, (George A. Smith) wasn't very honest either, and changed many of Smith's diary entries when they drafted Joseph's history. All of that needs to be assessed when one uses such accounts. In his letter on the 22nd, Joseph did allude to "making things right", but didn't go so far as to say he would pay for anything. (That would be an admission of guilt and he could be sued or serve jail time for it) and any lawyer would have told him not to admit to anything before a trial. So his admitting wrongdoing was not in his best interest and anyone would have done the same in that situation. But Smith didn't think he was wrong as that letter attests.

If you really want to be taken seriously, then you need to know what you are talking about, and stop going to FAIRMORMON and quoting their BS. Buying that book won't help you, there are no footnotes as to where they got the quote from, I found it on my own.

But believe what you will, I can only present the evidence and people have to make up their own minds as to its validity or relevance or importance to the discussion.


The feckless Niadna is on a mission. The voices urge Niadna on to do battle with the evil apostates. Perhaps Niadna has a Bowie knife to unsheathe if we prove difficult. :lol:
"God" is the original deus ex machina. --Maksutov
_Shulem
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Re: What is an anti-Mormon?

Post by _Shulem »

What is an anti-Mormon?

Someone who boldly proclaims that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is not what it claims to be.

Someone who boldly proclaims that the original miraculous claims made by Joseph Smith were a complete fabrication in an attempt to outdo Catholic authority and dismiss the Reformation.

Someone who rejects the Book of Mormon as a fraudulent novel full of plagiarized material from the Bible and other sources known to Joseph Smith.

Someone who accuses Joseph Smith for pretending to translate the Egyptian hieroglyphic characters of Facsimile No. 3 and siding with conventional Egyptology rather than Mormon quackery.

I am an anti-Mormon
_Maksutov
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Re: What is an anti-Mormon?

Post by _Maksutov »

Shulem wrote:What is an anti-Mormon?

Someone who boldly proclaims that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is not what it claims to be.

Someone who boldly proclaims that the original miraculous claims made by Joseph Smith were a complete fabrication in an attempt to outdo Catholic authority and dismiss the Reformation.

Someone who rejects the Book of Mormon as a fraudulent novel full of plagiarized material from the Bible and other sources known to Joseph Smith.

Someone who accuses Joseph Smith for pretending to translate the Egyptian hieroglyphic characters of Facsimile No. 3 and siding with conventional Egyptology rather than Mormon quackery.

I am an anti-Mormon


What, no place for pious pussy grabbing? :lol: You're behind the times, dude.

Oh, and the legacy that just keeps popping up among the depraved:

https://www.sltrib.com/news/2018/03/21/ ... -normalcy/
"God" is the original deus ex machina. --Maksutov
_Lemmie
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Re: What is an anti-Mormon?

Post by _Lemmie »

Shulem wrote:What is an anti-Mormon?

Someone who boldly proclaims that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is not what it claims to be.

Someone who boldly proclaims that the original miraculous claims made by Joseph Smith were a complete fabrication in an attempt to outdo Catholic authority and dismiss the Reformation.

Someone who rejects the Book of Mormon as a fraudulent novel full of plagiarized material from the Bible and other sources known to Joseph Smith.

Someone who accuses Joseph Smith for pretending to translate the Egyptian hieroglyphic characters of Facsimile No. 3 and siding with conventional Egyptology rather than Mormon quackery.

I am an anti-Mormon


At least your definition is specific and real. After reading a little of the threads on CARM that naidna has referred to, I can only conclude that her list of anti-Mormon behavior is based mostly on exaggerated perceptions of online shenanigans.
Extreme anti-Mormons throw rocks. One woman has threatened to have me hauled out of her church in handcuffs if I so much as showed up to her service, loves to tell about how her neighbor set her dogs on the missionaries for daring to tell her the the Bible wasn't inerrant, threatened to set HER dog on me, and told me that if I were stupid enough to walk down a public street that had a store front church meeting going on, then it was entirely my fault if those in the meeting ran out and threw rocks at me. What in the WORLD was I doing 'flaunting' myself (yeah, those missionary badges are really ostentatious, aren't they?) in a place where there might be people who didn't like Mormons?

She is also fond of feeding people she doesn't like to alligators.

SHE is an extreme anti-Mormon. She's also highly amusing in her incredible seriousness, but that's beside the point.

So....on internet forums I seem to run into...mostly...anti Mormons with a few critics (I love the critics) and quite a few extreme anti Mormons.

How close do you think I am in this analysis?

For a description of online exaggerations and urban myths, pretty close.
_Shulem
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Re: What is an anti-Mormon?

Post by _Shulem »

Lemmie wrote:At least your definition is specific and real. After reading a little of the threads on CARM that naidna has referred to, I can only conclude that her list of anti-Mormon behavior is based mostly on exaggerated perceptions of online shenanigans.


I agree. My antiMormonism is purely intellectual and has nothing to do with actually going out and throwing rocks or sicking a dog on missionaries. Yes, I am very critical against the church and often use questionable graphics (some quiet shocking) to make my point. In a manner of speaking, I'm the opposite of proMormon which strongly advocates truth claims of the LDS church. I do just the opposite.
_Niadna
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Re: What is an anti-Mormon?

Post by _Niadna »

grindael wrote:
I also never claimed that Gov. Ford was enamored of the Mormons or of Mormonism. He wasn't.


And I never said you did. Who do you think you are talking to? This is the SECOND TIME you have put words in my mouth that didn't come from there. Please STOP DOING THIS.


'Putting words in your mouth" is saying something like "you are saying that...." or "so your claim is...."

What I wrote is that I NEVER CLAIMED...note, please, the *I*....that Gov. Ford was enamored of the Mormons or Mormonism.

If anybody was putting words in the keyboard of the other, it looks as if you were putting them in mine. I was simply correcting you. So...Please stop doing that.



grindael wrote:You don't understand Mormon history, you're comprehension skills are dismal, and you keep repeating the same erroneous tripe you are spewing here over and over again in the face of the actual evidence that proves you wrong.

You are not about "facts and evidence", you are simply another dishonest Mormon Apologist.


your opinions are yours. You are entitled to them. You are NOT entitled to your own facts, however, and you need to learn to differentiate between evidence presented and your opinion of them.
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_Niadna
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Re: What is an anti-Mormon?

Post by _Niadna »

Fence Sitter wrote:
Niadna wrote:
If I am guilty of the things you claim, then you are doubly so, because you have not condemned the burning of the Jackson county press in equally scathing terms, nor have you condemned anything done TO the Mormons.

I really dislike hypocrisy.

.....and I never justified the destruction of the Nauvoo press. I said that it was found to be legal in a court of law. It was.


Time out.

I know your getting hit from a lot of sides and I am trying not to add to that but the destruction of the Jackson press is not what is being discussed here. You raised the issue of the Nauvoo Press and the offer by Joseph Smith to pay for it and others are following that lead. If you want to discuss the Jackson county press, fine, but don't you think you should wait to actually hear people's opinions on that subject before calling them hypocrites? Otherwise all your doing here is a classic tu quoque response.


When others are calling the destruction of the Nauvoo press, and those who accomplished that, do not, with equal fervor, denounce those who ....first and far more nastily....committed the same act AGAINST us, they are ignoring the context of the act.

In this case, the context of the destruction of the Nauvoo Press includes the FACT that it does not stand alone; that destroying the press of the opposing faction seems to have been pretty standard behavior and nobody at the time called such things 'treason' or any of the other charges leveled at Joseph Smith and the Nauvoo council. Certainly there was no arrest and mob murder of any of the other perpetrators of such deeds.

That is the CONTEXT of the time.

Not seeing this within that context is...to put it academically, 'historian's bias,' if not outright presentism. I brought up the Jackson county press to show the context...and the hypocrisy of those who called Joseph Smith 'traitor' and all the other things both then AND now.

Nobody was bothered by the destruction of a printing press until a Mormon did it.

And THAT is entirely appropriate to bring up.
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_Lemmie
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Re: What is an anti-Mormon?

Post by _Lemmie »

Niadna, to grindael, wrote: You are NOT entitled to your own facts, however, and you need to learn to differentiate between evidence presented and your opinion of them.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Of all the people to say that to. The strategy of attacking when you are proved wrong is not really the way to go here.
naidna wrote:I was simply correcting you

Grindael's posts of original statements and writings are not "corrected" by Fairmormon nonsense. Credibility is a big issue here, and quoting Fairmormon instead of studying original work really destroys that.
Last edited by Guest on Fri Jun 08, 2018 4:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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