Four Hours at the Capitol: A Must Watch HBO Documentary

[Cultellus]

Oh boy. So the person who shot first was just making a peaceful gesture or something?

So, a person who shot into the sky deserves to be shot dead by Kyle Rittenhouse because he was not “making a peaceful gesture or something”?

We don’t know who was firing where for what, do we? Do you? I don’t. I have the information I have read in various reports. I do know that Kyle Rittenhouse killed two people, and as far as I am aware no one aimed a deadly firearm at him before he did that.

Firearms are always fired into the air. Christamighty. I am unaware of them working underwater. This is silly. No goddamn wonder people think the left is a bunch of idiot snowflakes with hurt feelings and an expertise in reading CNN and NPR tweets.

Boy is this trollicious. Pointed at the sky, Cult. Pointed up at the sky, as in not at Kyle Rittenhouse. You should be able to interpret this successfully without a lot of help, I hope. No need to twist words to make them seem stupid when most everyone, except maybe you?, knows what I meant.

Bullets were flying before Kyle fired a shot. And they weren’t to say “howdy.” This would have all been better if Kyle had stayed home. And if dumbasses with guns weren’t firing them at a riot, looting and arson party.

Flying where? At whom? Did Kyle see people shooting at him? If you know something about this, something specific, please do tell. All of your beating around the bush is not advancing anyone’s understanding of the situation. If you want to persuade us that the 17 year old kid who crossed state lines to appoint himself a security officer brandishing an AR-15 is just a reasonable kid doing reasonable things, you have a lot more work to do.

Thinking that he probably isn’t takes a lot less work because it is a lot less likely that he was just a reasonable kid doing reasonable things.

Kish, the point is simple - I was not there. You were not there. I do not know. You do not know.

I can’t tell you about Kyle’s first shot, and neither can you. THAT IS THE POINT! And so what if he was 17 or if he had an AR? Who the hell cares? He should have been home. He was not. He went to a riot like the other people he shot who also went to a riot.

The first shot, fired into the air, may have sent the bullet past Kyle’s ear, or it may have landed in the lake. You do not know. I do not know.

Kyle was threatened. He fired shots. People died. One guy who was threatening Kyle with a loaded gun got his arm shot to hell.

Most people know that if they fire a gun at someone who has a gun, or threaten them with a skateboard, or point a loaded gun at them, they may catch a bullet. Its kinda like, just how it goes man.

[Cultellus]

Nazi flags

Did that happen? Were Nazi flags flown at our capital?

If it happened, that is awful. If it didn’t but you say it did, that is awful.

[honorentheos]

Data, yo.

https://acleddata.com/2021/05/25/a-year ... -movement/

From the link:



It’s interesting the study cites 11,000 events with “only” a 6% outbreak of violence. That’s 660 violent events with billions in property damage, injuries, and death. It doesn’t matter how many English national team football matches peacefully occur, it only takes a few times for hooligans appear before the country gains a reputation for hooliganism. Anyway, the study is worth the read if anyone wants to get their perspective.

- Doc

There is certainly a bias in the narrative, no argument. And it shows up in some of the graphics, too.

That said, the Armed Conflict Location & Event Data Project is an international group with a bias for punching up so the direction they chose here isn't unexpected. Their website is worth paying attention to for a number or reasons. It also happens to be data which is not readily concatenated in other places. Given the intense opinions of folks about the issue, one might find that surprising...if they weren't cynical.

It matters to the analysis what influence the presence of firearms has and what kinda of other behavior are taking place such as counter-protests, civilians driving cars into demonstrations, or strong police reactions.

DANGER OF ARMED DEMONSTRATIONS
Between January 2020 and June 2021, there were more than 30,000 public demonstrations in the US. Of those, at least 560 demonstrations included the presence of an armed individual, other than law enforcement. While armed demonstrations represent a small proportion of the total number of events, this subset is significantly more likely to involve violence or destructive behavior.

Roughly one out of every six demonstrations where firearms were present included reports of violent or destructive activity. For demonstrations where no firearms were identified, that figure is one out of 37. While armed demonstrations account for less than 2% of the total number of demonstrations in the US, they account for 10% of all violent or destructive demonstrations. Armed demonstrations turn violent or destructive about 16% of the time, compared to less than 3% of the time for unarmed demonstrations, where demonstrators might engage in violence — through use of weapons other than firearms or unarmed physical violence — or destructive activity.

The report also notes about 1% of BLM protests had a car-ramming incident, and the majority did not involve violence or looting.

So we have this problematic situation. Segments of our society feel law enforcement is not only not working to enforce the rule of law equally but is in fact disproportionately targeting them in a broken system that ruins lives if one is unfortunately pulled into it without the resources needed to avoid unlawful detention or prosecution. That's a serious societal flaw if one believes in small "d" democratic values. Based on the axiomatic principle that people who feel they have little to lose are more willing to roll the dice in revolutionary behaviors, one can't be surprised by there being violence involves to some degree. Prosecuting individuals involved in violence while giving voice and seeking solutions to the underlying cause is, in my opinion, a higher way that has hope in it for better achieving the ideals that, in my opinion, serve as th foundation for the promised democracy that can be the US of good ol' A.

[Cultellus]

Honor, how many of the incidents of violence were prosecuted?

I agree with your solution. I also think that letting repeat and violent rioters out on bail was a recipe for disaster. What the hell did they think was going to happen? Did they think Americans who were not cool with rioting were excited about that?

The numbers you highlight show that there was a LOT of crime and violence. It seems that was not an issue if it was politically awesome.

[honorentheos]

And so what if he was 17 or if he had an AR? Who the hell cares? He should have been home. He was not. He went to a riot like the other people he shot who also went to a riot.

I care.

Trained individuals carrying firearms into into charged situations experience changes to their perception that their training is supposed to help mitigate so they can still make decisions that limit the potential for a preventable shooting. Yet even with that training many shootings occur. Adrenaline kicking in makes a person more likely to perceive things in a way that will cause them to leap hard into a fight-flight response.

Kyle was not a trained individual. He is a teenager whose brain is that of a teenager which is already a disadvantage when it comes to rational risk assessment. He found himself outside of the car dealership and prevented from reentering it putting him in a situation where he was isolated and among perceived enemies with ill intent.

This was a preventable incident. And you should care, too.

[honorentheos]

Honor, how many of the incidents of violence were prosecuted?

I agree with your solution. I also think that letting repeat and violent rioters out on bail was a recipe for disaster. What the hell did they think was going to happen? Did they think Americans who were not cool with rioting were excited about that?

The numbers you highlight show that there was a LOT of crime and violence. It seems that was not an issue if it was politically awesome.

Violence by whom?

[Cultellus]

And so what if he was 17 or if he had an AR? Who the hell cares? He should have been home. He was not. He went to a riot like the other people he shot who also went to a riot.

I care.

Trained individuals carrying firearms into into charged situations experience changes to their perception that their training is supposed to help mitigate so they can still make decisions that limit the potential for a preventable shooting. Yet even with that training many shootings occur. Adrenaline kicking in makes a person more likely to perceive things in a way that will cause them to leap hard into a fight-flight response.

Kyle was not a trained individual. He is a teenager whose brain is that of a teenager which is already a disadvantage when it comes to rational risk assessment. He found himself outside of the car dealership and prevented from reentering it putting him in a situation where he was isolated and among perceived enemies with ill intent.

This was a preventable incident. And you should care, too.

I agree with this part. I don’t think that being 17 and having an AR justified him being a target or that a 17 year old can’t defend himself.

I have said it over and over. He should not have been there. He did not fire first. He was threatened. This is a mess.

[Cultellus]

Honor, how many of the incidents of violence were prosecuted?

I agree with your solution. I also think that letting repeat and violent rioters out on bail was a recipe for disaster. What the hell did they think was going to happen? Did they think Americans who were not cool with rioting were excited about that?

The numbers you highlight show that there was a LOT of crime and violence. It seems that was not an issue if it was politically awesome.

Violence by whom?

You said that a portion of the protests where firearms were present had violence and destructive activity. Whoever did that violence or destructive activity.

[Kishkumen]

Kish, the point is simple - I was not there. You were not there. I do not know. You do not know.

I can’t tell you about Kyle’s first shot, and neither can you. THAT IS THE POINT! And so what if he was 17 or if he had an AR? Who the hell cares? He should have been home. He was not. He went to a riot like the other people he shot who also went to a riot.

The first shot, fired into the air, may have sent the bullet past Kyle’s ear, or it may have landed in the lake. You do not know. I do not know.

Kyle was threatened. He fired shots. People died. One guy who was threatening Kyle with a loaded gun got his arm shot to hell.

Most people know that if they fire a gun at someone who has a gun, or threaten them with a skateboard, or point a loaded gun at them, they may catch a bullet. Its kinda like, just how it goes man.

Fortunately, we have a legal system in this country that addresses these issues. "Just how it goes, man" may be fine for you and people like you, but people like me do not want armed teenagers playing vigilante or revolutionary. Charge them appropriately, see what the court finds, live with the outcome. Better to have the system and have it functional than to leave these things to vigilantes, in my opinion.

As for what kind of individual opinion we take away from this situation, I am telling you that my opinion is heavily informed by his age, his lack of training, and his access to an AR-15. If it were up to me, the kid would be charged as an adult with manslaughter and convicted of the same, serving real time in prison. I would not charge him with homicide because of the circumstances. I would also charge other people who were brandishing and discharging guns. We can't charge some of his assailants because dumbass Kyle killed them.

[Cultellus]

Kish, the point is simple - I was not there. You were not there. I do not know. You do not know.

I can’t tell you about Kyle’s first shot, and neither can you. THAT IS THE POINT! And so what if he was 17 or if he had an AR? Who the hell cares? He should have been home. He was not. He went to a riot like the other people he shot who also went to a riot.

The first shot, fired into the air, may have sent the bullet past Kyle’s ear, or it may have landed in the lake. You do not know. I do not know.

Kyle was threatened. He fired shots. People died. One guy who was threatening Kyle with a loaded gun got his arm shot to hell.

Most people know that if they fire a gun at someone who has a gun, or threaten them with a skateboard, or point a loaded gun at them, they may catch a bullet. Its kinda like, just how it goes man.

Fortunately, we have a legal system in this country that addresses these issues. "Just how it goes, man" may be fine for you and people like you, but people like me do not want armed teenagers playing vigilante or revolutionary. Charge them appropriately, see what the court finds, live with the outcome. Better to have the system and have it functional than to leave these things to vigilantes, in my opinion.

As for what kind of individual opinion we take away from this situation, I am telling you that my opinion is heavily informed by his age, his lack of training, and his access to an AR-15. If it were up to me, the kid would be charged as an adult with manslaughter and convicted of the same, serving real time in prison. I would not charge him with homicide because of the circumstances. I would also charge other people who were brandishing and discharging guns. We can't charge some of his assailants because dumbass Kyle killed them.

Fair. And I have no idea what he should be charged with or convicted of. I was not there.

Seems to me he has a plausible defense and explanation for shooting people that shot at him, threatened him, and pointed a loaded gun at him.

Let it ride in court. ain't my problem.