RFM v. Midnight Mormons—Debate

[Bought Yahoo]

The one thing I learned tonight: Kwaku is a dick. A mean, actually sadistic dick.

Haha. Basically you're upset because Kwaku defended Mormonism righteously and faithfully and you were hoping the outcome was going to be different than what it was. I was wrong a couple weeks ago when I said RFM would come out of this debate looking like he was being picked on by the Midnight Mormons. Infact, just the opposite!! The audience acted like a bunch of spoiled whiny brats that wanted RFM to tear up his three younger opponents. The Midnight Mormons came out of this debate looking great!! RFM came out of this debate looking like a old man that's upset because he spent the first half of life in Mormonism and now he can't figure out a way to move on. Tell ya the truth, Mormonism was the true winner of this debate. Why the hell would I want to leave Mormonism to just become a middle aged man that looks forward to sitting in an audience that cheers for someone that tears down someones religion? What kinda life is that? The audience was the big loser. A bunch of old white men laughing at three young men defending their faith. You guys need to get a life! Learn how to move on.

I take it you have no comment at all on the merits.

[SaturdaysVoyeur]

Oh, this finally happened? Cool!

**fires up the video**

WTF....bulletproof vests?!

What? Were they afraid their own supporters have bad aim?

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

Haha. Basically you're upset because Kwaku defended Mormonism righteously and faithfully and you were hoping the outcome was going to be different than what it was. I was wrong a couple weeks ago when I said RFM would come out of this debate looking like he was being picked on by the Midnight Mormons. Infact, just the opposite!! The audience acted like a bunch of spoiled whiny brats that wanted RFM to tear up his three younger opponents. The Midnight Mormons came out of this debate looking great!! RFM came out of this debate looking like a old man that's upset because he spent the first half of life in Mormonism and now he can't figure out a way to move on. Tell ya the truth, Mormonism was the true winner of this debate. Why the hell would I want to leave Mormonism to just become a middle aged man that looks forward to sitting in an audience that cheers for someone that tears down someones religion? What kinda life is that? The audience was the big loser. A bunch of old white men laughing at three young men defending their faith. You guys need to get a life! Learn how to move on.

I take it you have no comment at all on the merits.

Think of Atlantic Moron as the Midnight Mormons +1.

- Doc

[Atlanticmike]

Haha. Basically you're upset because Kwaku defended Mormonism righteously and faithfully and you were hoping the outcome was going to be different than what it was. I was wrong a couple weeks ago when I said RFM would come out of this debate looking like he was being picked on by the Midnight Mormons. Infact, just the opposite!! The audience acted like a bunch of spoiled whiny brats that wanted RFM to tear up his three younger opponents. The Midnight Mormons came out of this debate looking great!! RFM came out of this debate looking like a old man that's upset because he spent the first half of life in Mormonism and now he can't figure out a way to move on. Tell ya the truth, Mormonism was the true winner of this debate. Why the hell would I want to leave Mormonism to just become a middle aged man that looks forward to sitting in an audience that cheers for someone that tears down someones religion? What kinda life is that? The audience was the big loser. A bunch of old white men laughing at three young men defending their faith. You guys need to get a life! Learn how to move on.

I take it you have no comment at all on the merits.

Faith isn't about facts! Never has been. I've been saying that here and on md&d. All these years and you still haven't figured out what religion is for?

[Fred_VII]

Has anyone ever heard of this? It was fairly scandalous in my ward to say you believed rather than you knew the Church was true. It's like they were trying so hard to paint a positive picture of the Church that they had to delve into fantasy.

I've heard an occasional "I believe" in my ward over the years. Mostly it's the tried and true "I know." I can't say I've ever heard it stated the way MM say people state it, by first calling out that you don't know but you do believe. Whenever people have used "I believe" it's mostly snuck in there, you wouldn't notice unless you were paying careful attention.

As pointed out, it may be a generation gap thing but I remember being explicitly taught as a regular member and as a missionary that you're supposed to say "I know" and to not say "I believe."

The telling thing to me is that MM invented a church that doesn't say "I know" yet they themselves used "I know" throughout the bearing testimony bits of their presentation. Hard to hide a habit.

[Philo Sofee]

Has anyone ever heard of this? It was fairly scandalous in my ward to say you believed rather than you knew the Church was true. It's like they were trying so hard to paint a positive picture of the Church that they had to delve into fantasy.

I've heard an occasional "I believe" in my ward over the years. Mostly it's the tried and true "I know." I can't say I've ever heard it stated the way MM say people state it, by first calling out that you don't know but you do believe. Whenever people have used "I believe" it's mostly snuck in there, you wouldn't notice unless you were paying careful attention.

As pointed out, it may be a generation gap thing but I remember being explicitly taught as a regular member and as a missionary that you're supposed to say "I know" and to not say "I believe."

The telling thing to me is that MM invented a church that doesn't say "I know" yet they themselves used "I know" throughout the bearing testimony bits of their presentation. Hard to hide a habit.

And yet Kwaku insists on trying to define what I KNOW means! Then they turn around and use it all over the place. This demonstrates Thomas Riskas pegged Mormons in their indoctrination of saying things they have no idea what they even mean. Riskas has their psychology down cold in Deconstructing Mormonism, and the MM demonstrated that beautifully.

[Philo Sofee]

What MM did in ridiculously showing up in bullet proof vests shows their delusionary state of the world. They believe in conspiracy theories, which is illusionary. So we know their views of their ideal Mormonism is delusionary so they live in fantasy. The stunt was just stupid. To see supposed mature Mormon men do that decided the debate before it even began. We knew they were going to be off kilter, and they then rose to that challenge and demonstrated that beyond any doubt.

[Philo Sofee]

I missed that part.

It was the multipart multilong question that Cardon derided as incomprehensible.

Kwaku responded with his own personal experience as his mother was a polygamist and he said -- you don't know what its like until you live it. Lame. Cardon took up the rest of the time with utterly stupid platitudes. Consig's response was forgettable and meaningless.

Does anybody know, for instance, that Pres. Joseph F. Smith admitted before a congressional committee that he ignored the manifesto and continued to have children? He didn't rebut the point raised by Senate lawyers that he had married after the manifesto off Catalina?

Or, on the other hand, does anybody want to address the ingrained and sacred nature, apparently, of plural marriage discussed in the Old Testament?

Good points here. In a way the multi-mega-questions being crammed into one big one from McCraney was rather problematic, but the idea was to get as much information into the debate as possible I suppose. Yeah the deliberate lies and hypocrisy of leaders after the manifesto, and them knowing they were continuing the practice and lying to Congress is as damaging as anything in Mormon history. Other than their wearing those idiotic bullet proof vests.

[Philo Sofee]

Has anyone ever heard of this? It was fairly scandalous in my ward to say you believed rather than you knew the Church was true. It's like they were trying so hard to paint a positive picture of the Church that they had to delve into fantasy.

I've heard an occasional "I believe" in my ward over the years. Mostly it's the tried and true "I know." I can't say I've ever heard it stated the way MM say people state it, by first calling out that you don't know but you do believe. Whenever people have used "I believe" it's mostly snuck in there, you wouldn't notice unless you were paying careful attention.

As pointed out, it may be a generation gap thing but I remember being explicitly taught as a regular member and as a missionary that you're supposed to say "I know" and to not say "I believe."

The telling thing to me is that MM invented a church that doesn't say "I know" yet they themselves used "I know" throughout the bearing testimony bits of their presentation. Hard to hide a habit.

Yes, I seriously was astounded when they took this tactic. NO ONE ever bears their testimony in this way in church or in the mission field. Can you imagine a missionary saying to an investigator, "I sure hope and believe this church is true"??? The idiocy of MM saying people bear their testimonies in church that way is a howler without question. Kwaku doesn't even "know" the meaning of the word and was wanting to discuss it for crying out loud. Yet he turns around and uses it. That's called ignorance in brainwashing folks. It really is.

[SaturdaysVoyeur]

What MM did in ridiculously showing up in bullet proof vests shows their delusionary state of the world. They believe in conspiracy theories, which is illusionary. So we know their views of their ideal Mormonism is delusionary so they live in fantasy. The stunt was just stupid. To see supposed mature Mormon men do that decided the debate before it even began. We knew they were going to be off kilter, and they then rose to that challenge and demonstrated that beyond any doubt.

I don't think it was delusion nor conspiracy theory (though I agree they engage in both).

I think they were intentionally trying to send a very definite message that they see themselves as potential victims of an ex-Mormon mob.

Ironically, they are the ones who instigate mob mentality, and sometimes threats of violence, towards people they don't like.

Mormon? Yes. Men? Yes. Mature? They've got a ways to go on that one!