RFM v. Midnight Mormons—Debate

[Bought Yahoo]

The debate would've been the same no matter what religion we're talking about, that's the point. You had a middle aged lawyer trying to explain the facts of Mormonism and the "facts" don't matter when it comes to religion, ANY RELIGION! Are you able to give me a religion where the facts prove the religion 100% true?? Again, for all you really really smart people, are you able to tell me what religion is proved 100% true with FACTS? No! You can't! Because religion, any religion isn't about actual facts.

Here some advice from a roofer with a GED. You lawyers, doctors and other self-professed smart people, left the Mormon church and became addicted to proving the church wrong because you think somehow it's going to relieve the pain you feel inside. Can leaving a religion be a major trauma event in your life?? Absolutely!! But tearing it down and studying it for the rest of your life isn't going to dull the pain.

Do you have any merits argument at all?

[Moksha]

Again, for all you really really smart people, are you able to tell me what religion is proved 100% true with FACTS?

Few religions dwell on 100% truth claims.

[Philo Sofee]

Again, for all you really really smart people, are you able to tell me what religion is proved 100% true with FACTS?

Few religions dwell on 100% truth claims.

Only one that I know testifies with certainty, and the debate showed that is yet again, a false claim, tanks to he adroitness of RFM.

[Atlanticmike]

Again, for all you really really smart people, are you able to tell me what religion is proved 100% true with FACTS?

Few religions dwell on 100% truth claims.

Exactly! Religion isn't about "truth". Religion/spirituality isn't about finding facts, never has been. Religion is about finding comfort, peace, tranquility and a state of mind that helps us die with the knowledge of an after life. The majority of people on this board are upset because they've grown beyond Mormonism and are now pissed off because not everyone agrees with where they are in their life journey. So now a lot of the people who leave Mormonism spend a large portion of their time saying "" look look look look look look!!!"' look what I found! Come join me! I found the "truth" you guys! Again, facts and faith don't mix together.

[Atlanticmike]

The debate would've been the same no matter what religion we're talking about, that's the point. You had a middle aged lawyer trying to explain the facts of Mormonism and the "facts" don't matter when it comes to religion, ANY RELIGION! Are you able to give me a religion where the facts prove the religion 100% true?? Again, for all you really really smart people, are you able to tell me what religion is proved 100% true with FACTS? No! You can't! Because religion, any religion isn't about actual facts.

Here some advice from a roofer with a GED. You lawyers, doctors and other self-professed smart people, left the Mormon church and became addicted to proving the church wrong because you think somehow it's going to relieve the pain you feel inside. Can leaving a religion be a major trauma event in your life?? Absolutely!! But tearing it down and studying it for the rest of your life isn't going to dull the pain.

Do you have any merits argument at all?

Give me a religion that can be proven on facts first please.

[Dwight]

Finished this it's clear Kwaku was the weakest link and he knew they lost cause he started pulling out the ad hominem attacks. Maybe I am biased, but RFM attacked the church that actually exists with Nelson at the head. MM's church that they defended was their own creation. Kwaku is single and young enough, he has to be going to singles wards, so how in touch is he with the family wards?

MM say you should study, and go to church, and do all the things. I know so many people who become like 110% members as their shelf comes crashing down. They pray more, they read their scriptures more, they go to the temple more. It's also interesting how Mormonism is the only way for society to exist, and Kwaku sort of extends it to our Judeo-Christian heritage, but Mormons aren't even a blip on the world's population, people aren't living empty bitter lives in Europe. Those boys need to get outside their bubble, they act like it is the only way you can have a meaningful happy life, but it is not at all accurate. Someone once put it well, Mormons believe you need to go to the temple to get sealed to be with your family forever and eternal families is some unique thing to Mormonism, but the reason it isn't talked about as much or seen as a big deal is because most other religious traditions believe it is baked in, that of course you are with your family forever, and there isn't even any requirements or steps to get it, it's a given. So what is actually unique to Mormonism is that it's possible for you to not be with your family forever.

Side note to family thing, funny that exmos take the blame for divorce. Of all the divorces I know of it's like 99 to 1 the believing member gives up or is unable to stay with their disbelieving spouse. It is bishops and family encouraging the believer to leave their spouse. Even as a TBM that was what I would hear.

[Kishkumen]

The debate would've been the same no matter what religion we're talking about, that's the point. You had a middle aged lawyer trying to explain the facts of Mormonism and the "facts" don't matter when it comes to religion, ANY RELIGION! Are you able to give me a religion where the facts prove the religion 100% true?? Again, for all you really really smart people, are you able to tell me what religion is proved 100% true with FACTS? No! You can't! Because religion, any religion isn't about actual facts.

It is interesting that you say that, since in Joseph Smith's day people were begging for new facts that would help them make sense of the questions of their time. You know, like Native Americans being Hebrews and the like. Honestly, I am glad that you have figured this out, because it actually puts you ahead of Joseph Smith and his contemporaries in their efforts to make a faith that made good old Yankee common sense. You show good old Yankee common sense in seeing that this was a doomed enterprise in its conception, but that is a delicious irony we can savor together.

Here some advice from a roofer with a GED. You lawyers, doctors and other self-professed smart people, left the Mormon church and became addicted to proving the church wrong because you think somehow it's going to relieve the pain you feel inside. Can leaving a religion be a major trauma event in your life?? Absolutely!! But tearing it down and studying it for the rest of your life isn't going to dull the pain.

Here's some homespun wisdom from the son of a Utah farm boy who grew up shoveling horse crap on the slopes of the Blue Ridge Mountains:

Don't assume that we all fit into one category and are all here doing the same thing. I have never been addicted to proving the LDS Church to be wrong. From the beginning, I was trying to figure out Mormonism altogether, and I still have fun doing that. Along the way, I realized that I found attending Church to be miserable. It was a lot more fun as a kid, but lawyers and corporatism managed to sap a lot of the fun and spiritual edification out of it. I also discovered that Church leaders don't know any interesting secrets or possess any special wisdom that I need.

I don't feel like I have ever ceased being Mormon. I just do it the way I do it. I do it without handing money to the LDS Church and putting up with their lame excuse for a community, which, honestly, takes the joy out of faith altogether. For me at least. If you enjoy it, then I am happy for you.

[PseudoPaul]

I missed that part.

It was the multipart multilong question that Cardon derided as incomprehensible.

Kwaku responded with his own personal experience as his mother was a polygamist and he said -- you don't know what its like until you live it. Lame. Cardon took up the rest of the time with utterly stupid platitudes. Consig's response was forgettable and meaningless.

Does anybody know, for instance, that Pres. Joseph F. Smith admitted before a congressional committee that he ignored the manifesto and continued to have children? He didn't rebut the point raised by Senate lawyers that he had married after the manifesto off Catalina?

Or, on the other hand, does anybody want to address the ingrained and sacred nature, apparently, of plural marriage discussed in the Old Testament?

Plural marriage in the Old Testament isn't "sacred" it's just the cultural norm - a common practice in the ancient Near East. It becomes sacralized in 19th century Mormonism, which is a little like insisting that modern pottery MUST imitate 6th century Hebrew pottery because it's the Lord's pattern for crockery.

On the other hand, Jesus was quite explicit that taking on a second spouse was adultery, so it's strange that Smith was so insistent on taking up the practice.

[Kishkumen]

Plural marriage in the Old Testament isn't "sacred" it's just the cultural norm - a common practice in the ancient Near East. It becomes sacralized in 19th century Mormonism, which is a little like insisting that modern pottery MUST imitate 6th century Hebrew pottery because it's the Lord's pattern for crockery.

On the other hand, Jesus was quite explicit that taking on a second spouse was adultery, so it's strange that Smith was so insistent on taking up the practice.

Great post.

[Moksha]

Give me a religion that can be proven on facts first please.

The four noble truths of Buddhism seem pretty good, especially that suffering can be eased with the use of stool softeners.