RFM v. Midnight Mormons—Debate

[The Stig]

The debate would've been the same no matter what religion we're talking about, that's the point. You had a middle aged lawyer trying to explain the facts of Mormonism and the "facts" don't matter when it comes to religion, ANY RELIGION! Are you able to give me a religion where the facts prove the religion 100% true?? Again, for all you really really smart people, are you able to tell me what religion is proved 100% true with FACTS? No! You can't! Because religion, any religion isn't about actual facts.

Here some advice from a roofer with a GED. You lawyers, doctors and other self-professed smart people, left the Mormon church and became addicted to proving the church wrong because you think somehow it's going to relieve the pain you feel inside. Can leaving a religion be a major trauma event in your life?? Absolutely!! But tearing it down and studying it for the rest of your life isn't going to dull the pain.

Do you have any merits argument at all?

No. No, he doesn't.

[Moksha]

The four noble truths of Buddhism seem pretty good, especially that suffering can be eased with the use of stool softeners.

Your recall of history seems a bit constipated. Quit being so age-based.

[MG 2.0]

I just finished watching the debate. I have only skimmed this thread so I don’t know what has been said in regards to the participants in specificity. I will only say that I think this discussion/debate was hugely successful. Both sides, on the whole, conducted themselves well. I was impressed with the breadth and depth of the discussion.

Well done ALL!

As I said, I have only skimmed the comments made earlier but not later in the thread so as to not be influenced either way. If there were any of you that had overly harsh things to say about ANY of the participants, I think you are being unfair. RFM handled himself and his positions with dignity and decorum as did the Midnight Mormons.

I doubt that many hearts and minds were moved from one side of the tracks to the other, but I think greater understanding and appreciation for each other as ‘brothers’ was achieved.

The moderator was awesome. When folks of different worldviews come together in a civil forum it shows that we can come together and AT LEAST respect each other as fellow travelers on this planet. The problem with online forums and online venues, unfortunately, is that we don’t interact face to face.

That’s a problem with no real solution. And it’s a big roadblock to a LOT of folks not getting along too well in our nation/world and among those that disagree on religious views on this board for example. Face to face makes a WHOLE lot of difference.

I’ve met at least three people on this board now or in the past and I am the better person for having met them and respect them for who they are because I saw them as something other than a screen name, etc.

Anyway, well done RFM and Midnight Mormons.

Regards,
MG

The moderator’s faith journey is inspiring and I think everyone should listen to him talk about it.

I think he’s done both Mormon Stories and Radio Free Mormon interviews.

Back in the day when he was doing online episodes where he was full on dissing the church I watched a number of his presentations. As moderator in this debate he was very even handed to both parties.

It appears that he may have mellowed with age. That happens for some. Others, not so much.

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

I mean, COME ON. . . People in Fast & Testimony meeting "routinely" say "I believe this church is true?"

In our ward we routinely have younger married folks with kids…so your traditional family types…where a spouse will stand and express their testimony and also their struggles with doubt in a secular world. In one form or another they will admit to their daily struggles with faith and the influences in the world that are there to pull them away.

A lot more common than when I was growing up. Back then the standard testimony was “I know.” That’s not as common nowadays. There seem to be more expressions stating that continued activity on the covenant path will lead towards greater knowledge and a stronger more mature faith. The Alma 32 route. I think more and more people realize that it’s almost impossible to KNOW in the literal sense, although some may have been given that gift.

And yes, more and more folks are much more tolerant towards expressions of “I’m trying, but I struggle.” The fellow that presented our Elders Quorum lesson yesterday introduced himself to us as someone who hasn’t been coming to the second hour of church for a long time but he wanted to repent. I’d never seen his face before. He gave a wonderful and thoughtful lesson and was very upfront about his foibles and imperfections even though he was trying to stay on the covenant path. Very honest and authentic.

There isn’t NEAR the perfectionism thing I saw when growing up. It’s healthy and it’s good to see. And yet the younger members still express their beliefs that perfectionism, or being complete, is the ideal and that Christ is the way, the truth, and the light.

I think the MM’s were very honest and upfront with their beliefs and made a strong case for faith over doubt and secularism. RFM seemed like an empty suit in this respect. He didn’t offer any alternatives for the power of faith to motivate righteousness and live with purpose, believing in something greater than oneself. But he was honest in admitting that he didn’t really have any alternatives for people once they left the church as a result of listening to his podcasts.

Regards,
MG

[Dr Exiled]

I mean, COME ON. . . People in Fast & Testimony meeting "routinely" say "I believe this church is true?"

In our ward we routinely have younger married folks with kids…so your traditional family types…where a spouse will stand and express their testimony and also their struggles with doubt in a secular world. In one form or another they will admit to their daily struggles with faith and the influences in the world that are there to pull them away.

A lot more common than when I was growing up. Back then the standard testimony was “I know.” That’s not as common nowadays. There seem to be more expressions stating that continued activity on the covenant path will lead towards greater knowledge and a stronger more mature faith. The Alma 32 route. I think more and more people realize that it’s almost impossible to KNOW in the literal sense, although some may have been given that gift.

And yes, more and more folks are much more tolerant towards expressions of “I’m trying, but I struggle.” The fellow that presented our Elders Quorum lesson yesterday introduced himself to us as someone who hasn’t been coming to the second hour of church for a long time but he wanted to repent. I’d never seen his face before. He gave a wonderful and thoughtful lesson and was very upfront about his foibles and imperfections even though he was trying to stay on the covenant path. Very honest and authentic.

There isn’t NEAR the perfectionism thing I saw when growing up. It’s healthy and it’s good to see. And yet the younger members still express their beliefs that perfectionism, or being complete, is the ideal and that Christ is the way, the truth, and the light.

I think the MM’s were very honest and upfront with their beliefs and made a strong case for faith over doubt and secularism. RFM seemed like an empty suit in this respect. He didn’t offer any alternatives for the power of faith to motivate righteousness and live with purpose, believing in something greater than oneself. But he was honest in admitting that he didn’t really have any alternatives for people once they left the church as a result of listening to his podcasts.

Regards,
MG

1. I'm glad you didn't try and gaslight here. When I started discussing the perfectionism issue on MD&D in 2010 or so, all I got was a slew of denials and gaslighting.

2. RFM is merely reporting the numerous faults contained within Mormonism and doing a good job of it. Trying to saddle him with the requirement to start another church or organization or alternatives is silly.

[The Stig]

I think the MM’s were very honest and upfront with their beliefs and made a strong case for faith over doubt and secularism. RFM seemed like an empty suit in this respect. He didn’t offer any alternatives for the power of faith to motivate righteousness and live with purpose, believing in something greater than oneself. But he was honest in admitting that he didn’t really have any alternatives for people once they left the church as a result of listening to his podcasts.

If by "strong case" you mean "repeated appeals to emotionalism," then, yes, they made a strong case.

[Dwight]

You don’t have to have somewhere to go. You can figure it out for yourself if religion is still for you or not, and which one. “Where will you go?” Most places are better than staying in that boat. You may not think it, but ultimately if you believe in god then you probably believe in some sort of judgment and either you are doing things for the reward, to escape punishment, or a mixture.

None of my neighbors are religious, I am no longer religious, and we look after and help one another better than I have ever seen a home teacher or neighbor do inside of Mormonism. I had one neighbor that was religious where we used to live and they were the worst neighbor in the building. We bought this house from JWs and they were not the best neighbors either. Though maybe we are all happy to be with our own bitter hollow shells that MM think we have since we don’t have a relationship with god.

[Moksha]

One thing we did learn from Midnight Mormon is that LDS apologetics is actively campaigning against secularism. Pretty sure Cardon Ellis and Kwaku had a plan regarding what should happen if those freedom-loving religionists had managed to get hold of VP Mike Pence during the peaceful tour of the US Capitol. Secularism is ruining the country by draining the precious bodily fluids of America and reducing its masculinity. Strong boots of Mormon Elders are needed to do some dusting against those secularists that RFM and his side support when they are not burning LDS chapels.

[Dr Moore]

Speaking as just one person, from one person's experience, I would say that RFM's presentations over the years were extremely helpful as I worked to sort out questions that arose at the onset of my personal faith journey. A journey which, by the way, started when I discovered the original gospel topics essays.

And contrary to the Mopologetic fear mongering about inevitable atheistic nihilism, while I no longer believe that the church is what it claims to be, I am also (a) not a nihilist and (b) more full of hope for humanity and for my life than ever.

I love being alive. The world makes more sense to me now, and the goodness in it inspires me to be a better person and fills me with gratitude to be alive. RFM did not help me discover any of what I believe today, and I give him credit for sticking with "I don't know" where that is the best available answer.

Like RFM, I don't know what happens after we die, except that our loved ones will miss us, but I don't need an answer to post-life questions in order to have hope, spirituality or rich, meaningful experiences. Yes, it was scary for a while, having my world view upended, but that uncertainty and fear is part of growth, not part of a journey to nihilism. The Mopes should really stop resting on that argument. It's flimsy, and wrong.

[MG 2.0]

Speaking as just one person, from one person's experience, I would say that RFM's presentations over the years were extremely helpful as I worked to sort out questions that arose at the onset of my personal faith journey. A journey which, by the way, started when I discovered the original gospel topics essays.

And contrary to the Mopologetic fear mongering about inevitable atheistic nihilism, while I no longer believe that the church is what it claims to be, I am also (a) not a nihilist and (b) more full of hope for humanity and for my life than ever.

I love being alive. The world makes more sense to me now, and the goodness in it inspires me to be a better person and fills me with gratitude to be alive. RFM did not help me discover any of what I believe today, and I give him credit for sticking with "I don't know" where that is the best available answer.

Like RFM, I don't know what happens after we die, except that our loved ones will miss us, but I don't need an answer to post-life questions in order to have hope, spirituality or rich, meaningful experiences. Yes, it was scary for a while, having my world view upended, but that uncertainty and fear is part of growth, not part of a journey to nihilism. The Mopes should really stop resting on that argument. It's flimsy, and wrong.

That is good that you are traveling a path that brings you joy and happiness.

My concern is, however, is that for every one of you how many are there that are left in a vacuum of sorts that they never successfully navigate themselves out of? As a result they don’t find the same fulfillment that they may have had with a belief in God. I suppose it’s impossible to know. But nonetheless, that would be a concern.

I know that within my circle of friends and family it’s been kind of a mixed bag. If one can still find faith in God after having left the church, I think that can be good for many folks. Unfortunately a bunch of people seem to leave God in the rearview mirror. But if in individual situations that honestly works for them, that’s great.

Man is that he might have joy.

Regards,
MG