I think Physics Guy makes sense and has point by point provided a reasonable look at problems with the Book of Mormon.
And don't dare (don't do it) tell me I have a poverty of knowledge regarding the Book of Mormon. From what I surmise, it's YOU that have a dearth of understanding what the Book of Mormon is really all about and Joseph Smith's motives. Yeah, you read a lot stuff and materials unrelated to the Book of Mormon and you think that makes you smart -- but I'm not impressed. Look, I know the Book of Mormon inside and out, yeah baby! Yeah!
Of course you like what Physics Guy has said, Shulem. You spend a lot of time pursuing the exact same thesis he is also following: Joseph Smith was a bad writer and his books are stupid. In order to understand a text, I contend that it is necessary to take it at least somewhat seriously and to know something about the cultural milieu in which it came to be. You assume you know Joseph Smith's motives when you probably don't, and then you proceed to read his work in a very faulty way based on your flawed assumptions about him.
What Tacitus wrote about writing imperial history also applies very well to the interpretation of Mormon scripture:
But after the battle of Actium, when the interests of peace required that all power should be concentrated in the hands of one man, writers of like ability disappeared; and at the same time historical truth was impaired in many ways: first, because men were ignorant of politics as being not any concern of theirs; later, because of their passionate desire to flatter; or again, because of their hatred of their masters. So between the hostility of the one class and the servility of the other, posterity was disregarded. But while men quickly turn from a historian who curries favor, they listen with ready ears to calumny and spite; for flattery is subject to the shameful charge of servility, but malignity makes a false show of independence.
"I have learned with what evils tyranny infects a state. For it frustrates all the virtues, robs freedom of its lofty mood, and opens a school of fawning and terror, inasmuch as it leaves matters not to the wisdom of the laws, but to the angry whim of those who are in authority.”
We should stop dwelling on the fact or fiction question, regardless of what the church or Joseph Smith says or said about it, and go beyond that issue, trying to get at the spirituality of the text? It is obviously fiction and so don't throw the baby out with the bathwater? There is worth in a work of fiction that was sold and is being sold to the public as actually having happened?
I think Kish is gaslighting. He's confusing and evasive. I can't follow him, can you?
We should stop dwelling on the fact or fiction question, regardless of what the church or Joseph Smith says or said about it, and go beyond that issue, trying to get at the spirituality of the text? It is obviously fiction and so don't throw the baby out with the bathwater? There is worth in a work of fiction that was sold and is being sold to the public as actually having happened?
LOL. Yikes.
"I have learned with what evils tyranny infects a state. For it frustrates all the virtues, robs freedom of its lofty mood, and opens a school of fawning and terror, inasmuch as it leaves matters not to the wisdom of the laws, but to the angry whim of those who are in authority.”
I think Kish is gaslighting. He's confusing and evasive. I can't follow him, can you?
It takes at least two fools to decide the truth of any issue.
"I have learned with what evils tyranny infects a state. For it frustrates all the virtues, robs freedom of its lofty mood, and opens a school of fawning and terror, inasmuch as it leaves matters not to the wisdom of the laws, but to the angry whim of those who are in authority.”
You assume you know Joseph Smith's motives when you probably don't, and then you proceed to read his work in a very faulty way based on your flawed assumptions about him.
Which is your pitiful way of saying you read his work without fault and you don't make flawed assumptions. Dude, from everything I've garnered from you about your understanding of Smith and his book is you simply don't get it. You're out in left field and it goes right over your head. All that other reading you do is not helping you better understand Joseph Smith.
Which is your pitiful way of saying you read his work without fault and you don't make flawed assumptions. Dude, from everything I've garnered from you about your understanding of Smith and his book is you simply don't get it. You're out in left field and it goes right over your head. All that other reading you do is not helping you better understand Joseph Smith.
Sigh.
You rely on your spite, hatred, and anger from an LDS life spent in misery for your understanding of Joseph Smith, so I am pretty sure I am not as badly off as you imagine I am.
"I have learned with what evils tyranny infects a state. For it frustrates all the virtues, robs freedom of its lofty mood, and opens a school of fawning and terror, inasmuch as it leaves matters not to the wisdom of the laws, but to the angry whim of those who are in authority.”
You rely on your spite, hatred, and anger from an LDS life spent in misery for your understanding of Joseph Smith, so I am pretty sure I am not as badly off as you imagine I am.
None of that has anything to do with it. It's all about scholarly research and an inside track into Joseph Smith's realm. You're just jealous because you don't have that and are puffed up in your other literature readings which offer little value to the discussion. Get on the playing field and deal with the real issue. Smith was a liar, conman, cheat, and faker. Do you even understand that?
None of that has anything to do with it. It's all about scholarly research and an inside track into Joseph Smith's realm. You're just jealous because you don't have that and are puffed up in your other literature readings which offer little value to the discussion. Get on the playing field and deal with the real issue. Smith was a liar, conman, cheat, and faker. Do you even understand that?
LOL! Yes, your bad experience with the LDS Church clearly has no bearing on the way you frame your questions!
"I have learned with what evils tyranny infects a state. For it frustrates all the virtues, robs freedom of its lofty mood, and opens a school of fawning and terror, inasmuch as it leaves matters not to the wisdom of the laws, but to the angry whim of those who are in authority.”
None of that has anything to do with it. It's all about scholarly research and an inside track into Joseph Smith's realm. You're just jealous because you don't have that and are puffed up in your other literature readings which offer little value to the discussion. Get on the playing field and deal with the real issue. Smith was a liar, conman, cheat, and faker. Do you even understand that?
LOL! Yes, your bad experience with the LDS Church clearly has no bearing on the way you frame your questions!
LAUGH IT FUZZBALL.
Accuracy and scholarship is what I care about. Focus on that. My "bad experiences" don't diminish that at all. My questions should be met with reasonable and intelligent answers.
READ the Book of Mormon, Kish. Read it again. Read it aloud. Read it while eating green eggs and ham.
Accuracy and scholarship is what I care about. Focus on that. My "bad experiences" don't diminish that at all. My questions should be met with reasonable and intelligent answers.
READ the Book of Mormon, Kish. Read it again. Read it aloud. Read it while eating green eggs and ham.
I have read the Book of Mormon. What I see you doing is word studies, which is fine groundwork but does not evince an understanding of the whole.
And you really should be honest with yourself. Your hyperpbolically negative and obviously prejudiced language and assumptions give you away as someone who is most definitely coming from a place of hatred, anger, and spite, not accuracy and scholarship.
Accuracy and scholarship are the words you throw around in reaction to the flaws you see in the apologetic work you despise.
"I have learned with what evils tyranny infects a state. For it frustrates all the virtues, robs freedom of its lofty mood, and opens a school of fawning and terror, inasmuch as it leaves matters not to the wisdom of the laws, but to the angry whim of those who are in authority.”