Interpreter apologists wrestle with Nephi’s transoceanic vessel

[Shulem]

I knew it was nothing but a trap.

I’m not trying to trap you. My purpose is to simply point in directions that folks can go to if they choose to. They can then take away from these sources what they will. There will always be contrary voices/conclusions. It’s to be expected when worldviews collide.

Regards,
MG

If I read the apologetic garbage you are suggesting and it influences me then the natural result is to be entrapped by it.

I DO NOT READ APOLOGETIC LITERATURE!!!!

I avoid it like you avoid pornagraphy.

[Moksha]

What abundant fruit and wild honey can be found along the desert coast of the Saudi peninsula?

Have you read this essay?

https://journal.interpreterfoundation.o ... is-harbor/

Shulem hasn’t. He doesn’t read apologetic material. My guess is that others are in the same boat…pun intended…that he has built for himself to restrict his speculations.

Khor Rori.

Regards,
MG

This place?

[dastardly stem]

Alternative location? I’m sure you can come with one that works. Consider time and location, etc.

Oh, is it possible that God had something in mind by leading them through the geography and the experiences they had along the way?

And…what’s with this ‘magic’ stuff? You’re making it appear as though when God supervises and guides his children along it’s all some kind of hocus pocus ‘trickery’ of some sort. I don’t think that’s how God works. Here and there he might do a ‘Red Sea’ thing, but that’s a one in a ______ exception/anomaly.

Any communication from God to man seems magical. There's been no demonstration it has ever happened or that there is a God at all. No one's identified what GOd is, where we can find him and every single claim that he is there shows it's as likely he is there as he is not. That is anyone who claims God has helped them or said something to them, could have benefitted by chance rather than direct help from God or could have thought of the words themselves while thinking God's inside them making up the words.

Nephi's story has God doing magic in order to build a ship. In his case, if true, God actually did help--you know the claims of finding lost keys isn't really help from God because surely keys have been found with and without invoking God. As you said God provided aid in at least the form of giving him plan sets, if you will, magically...out of thin air, as they say. The tools making process seems magical too. If we're going to take his story seriously, we can think of it in two ways: 1. Nephi thinks God inspired him on how to build a ship, but in reality he built a ship, perhaps having seen something like it before, and claimed God helped. Or 2. God actually magically (as in we don't know how) gave Nephi plans, guided him as he worked and directed the work, provided him means to create tools, etc. Excluding the concept of magic may seem ok because you just assume there's a god and he does magical things enough already. But, as I said, none of that has been demonstrated as ever really happening. Its an assumption at this point.

Leading Lehi and Co. to a place where THEY could do the work necessary to build a boat and get to the promised land is much more up God’s alley, at least in my opinion.

Well, sure...its all possible. I'm just pointing out it's not a rational position to hold until one demonstrates a God, what he is, how he's there and helps....and demonstrates, in the case of the sequestered claim from the article you linked, that the location is the only possible location from which God's plans, magically divined, could work. Or demonstrate God couldn't have led them anywhere from Jerusalem to the coasts of Oman, or Yemen or wherever they think it happened, and performed some magic to get them to build a boat.

There’s a certain degree of rationality to God relying on folks to learn and grow through experience rather than doing magic tricks, don’t you think?

Regards,
MG

No. That's outside the bounds of rationality. In order for there to be something rational in what you're saying, we need demonstration of a God first. Until then all claims that "God did it" is just assumption. You see, it seems extremely unlikely Nephi and co could have built a ship worthy of transoceanic voyage. Toss a magical God who could do anything he wishes into the mix and there is no reason to think that unlikeliness raises to any degree. Why? because we don't have a God in any demonstration anywhere.

[Moksha]

You see, it seems extremely unlikely Nephi and co could have built a ship worthy of a transoceanic voyage.

What if Nephi has been granted strings, sealing wax, and other fancy stuff down by the sea?

[canpakes]

What abundant fruit and wild honey can be found along the desert coast of the Saudi peninsula?

Have you read this essay?

https://journal.interpreterfoundation.o ... is-harbor/

Shulem hasn’t. He doesn’t read apologetic material. My guess is that others are in the same boat…pun intended…that he has built for himself to restrict his speculations.

Khor Rori.

Regards,
MG

I’ve read it. Have you read the section on where Nephi’s timbers would have needed to be sourced from?

Apparently, Nephi ran quite the import and construction operation, heavy with labor and flush with cash, to purchase timbers from India and then be able to offload and place that material as needed at his private slip, which he also fashioned himself and dug into the water in order to receive the timbers.

[MG 2.0]

In order for there to be something rational in what you're saying, we need demonstration of a God first. Until then all claims that "God did it" is just assumption. You see, it seems extremely unlikely Nephi and co could have built a ship worthy of transoceanic voyage. Toss a magical God who could do anything he wishes into the mix and there is no reason to think that unlikeliness raises to any degree. Why? because we don't have a God in any demonstration anywhere.

This is going to sound AWFULLY reductionist to you, but in my mind I have come…through my own personal experiences…to believe that faith precedes the miracle. That is, knowing who or what God is doesn’t come in one fell swoop. It’s a process of obedience, prayer, study, and understanding. God reveals his nature and being as one PRACTICES faith.

God reveals Himself according to His own time and His own way. Not ours. I’ve come to really believe that. And it’s different strokes for different folks.

Granted, that’s not always an easy thing to do. It requires patience and continued desire to know God rather than reject Him out of hand because He doesn’t simply reveal Himself, as it were, on a silver platter of understanding.

Regards,
MG

[Shulem]

Apparently, Nephi ran quite the import and construction operation, heavy with labor and flush with cash, to purchase timbers from India and then be able to offload and place that material as needed at his private slip, which he also fashioned himself and dug into the water in order to receive the timbers.

Oh, you mean the Book of Mormon narrative neglects to tell us how Nephi's family mined for gold while they wondered for 8 years in the wilderness and by the time they arrived at Bountiful they had a whole wagon full of gold and were able to trade that for ready made timber and supplies to build a fabulous ship in the shipyards of Bountiful.

Yes, it's plausible. Sure, why not? Anything to get Joe off the hook.

[Shulem]

It’s a process of obedience, prayer, study, and understanding. God reveals his nature and being as one PRACTICES faith.

Faith in things that make little sense and are proven wrong at every turn. I have no doubt, whatever, none at all -- the Book of Mormon is pure fiction. I know that with every fiber of my being and with all of my heart and mind. And the evidence backs that for good measure. The sense of wellness and peace of mind as I contemplate that is quiet reassuring despite the evidence that proves the book is a fraud. Nothing, absolutely nothing, could change my mind.

[MG 2.0]

Have you read this essay?

https://journal.interpreterfoundation.o ... is-harbor/

Shulem hasn’t. He doesn’t read apologetic material. My guess is that others are in the same boat…pun intended…that he has built for himself to restrict his speculations.

Khor Rori.

Regards,
MG

I’ve read it. Have you read the section on where Nephi’s timbers would have needed to be sourced from?

Apparently, Nephi ran quite the import and construction operation, heavy with labor and flush with cash, to purchase timbers from India and then be able to offload and place that material as needed at his private slip, which he also fashioned himself and dug into the water in order to receive the timbers.

Nephi does not tell us how he got his timbers, but he does comment that the completed ship "was good, and that the workmanship thereof was exceeding fine" (1 Nephi 18:4).

https://stepbystep.alancminer.com/1_ne_18

Regards,
MG

[dastardly stem]

This is going to sound AWFULLY reductionist to you, but in my mind I have come…through my own personal experiences…to believe that faith precedes the miracle. That is, knowing who or what God is doesn’t come in one fell swoop. It’s a process of obedience, prayer, study, and understanding. God reveals his nature and being as one PRACTICES faith.

God reveals Himself according to His own time and His own way. Not ours. I’ve come to really believe that. And it’s different strokes for different folks.

Granted, that’s not always an easy thing to do. It requires patience and continued desire to know God rather than reject Him out of hand because He doesn’t simply reveal Himself, as it were, on a silver platter of understanding.

Regards,
MG

Nah...I think I appreciate what you're saying well enough. I don't know if you noticed, but i started a thread reviewing a book I read recently, the Experience of God. I didn't much like the book, you'd see if you read my thread, but what you say fits in with it, at least somewhat from what I see the book explaining. Once you really dive in, telling yourself there's a god and he loves you and he's there for you, and he's working inside you and there's a reason for everything and God knows what's best for you so you're on a path for him and all of that...you've convinced yourself its all really happening. There is a God. And to know him is a process. That process starts by you convincing yourself there's a God and not letting go. I get that, to some extent. I simply don't buy it from the start. And I don't see good reason to buy the starting assumptions anymore. That'd be my sustained challenge to those who think there's a god. Give someone a reason to buy your assumptions. That's really hard to do. I get that. But it seems to be the burden one has in taking on the process you mention. The fruits you might point to don't mean much because each one is achieved by believer and nonbeliever alike.