Interpreter apologists wrestle with Nephi’s transoceanic vessel

[MG 2.0]

And to know him is a process. That process starts by you convincing yourself there's a God and not letting go. I get that, to some extent. I simply don't buy it from the start.

So let it be written, so let it be said.

Regards,
MG

[Shulem]

This place?

I clicked the evil apologetic link and found this under the picture you provided above:

They could only do this if they were already moored in the water, or else they would have had to push the ship into the sea, in which case they would climb up into the ship. The fact that they put forth into the sea implies considerable control of the ship and tells us that the water they were in was not yet the sea, i.e., they were in a harbor.

Fact? Fact? Fact?

The story that Nephi is telling via Joseph Smith is not a "fact". It's a story and nothing more. It's apologetic mind tricks to get their readers to think the Book of Mormon is a fact when it is nothing more than a faith promoting story made up by Joseph Smith whereby there are no facts to prove it ever happened. It's all based on faith, not facts.

Reading evil apologetic Mormon literature is quite disturbing. Now you see why I refuse to do it.

Mormons!

[canpakes]

I’ve read it. Have you read the section on where Nephi’s timbers would have needed to be sourced from?

Apparently, Nephi ran quite the import and construction operation, heavy with labor and flush with cash, to purchase timbers from India and then be able to offload and place that material as needed at his private slip, which he also fashioned himself and dug into the water in order to receive the timbers.

Nephi does not tell us how he got his timbers, but he does comment that the completed ship "was good, and that the workmanship thereof was exceeding fine" (1 Nephi 18:4).

https://stepbystep.alancminer.com/1_ne_18

Regards,
MG

You’re countering one apologetic resource with another apologetic resource. Who wins?

From your prior link:

Access to Long, Straight Hardwoods

There is no evidence that shipbuilding timber ever grew in Oman, yet Nephi needed long straight hardwood to build a ship strong enough to survive an ocean crossing. Phillips notes in a précis that “Timber appropriate for building a conventional, ocean-going ship does not grow anywhere along the Omani coast and probably did not in the past. Trees are very scarce in the Dhofar, and those of significant size tend to yield gnarly, punky wood.”

Phillips could have added that the short and gnarly trees that do grow in Dhofar are pervious soft woods which, when placed in the water, will become waterlogged and sink. The Omani Ministry of National Heritage and Culture notes: “Teak and coconut wood were used exclusively for building hulls. Teak had to be imported from India.” Jeff Lindsay suggests, “it is reasonable to argue that if locals relied in imported wood for key ships’ components, Nephi may also have needed to.” For example, maritime archaeologist Tim Severin constructed in Oman a replica of Sindbad’s sailing ship, which would have been smaller than Nephi’s. He noted, “The problem was that the keel piece to my replica needed to be 52 feet long, 12 inches by 15 inches in cross-section, and dead straight.” Severin had to import from India all the timbers for the replica. The main spar, the timber that holds the main sail, required a straight tree 81 feet long. The mast required another timber 65 feet long. Since such trees never grew in Oman, Nephi, like Severin, needed access to imported wood. Ample evidence witnesses to the contact between southern Oman and India and the Horn of Africa from as early as 1950 bc, which timespan could have allowed access to hardwoods from India, the source from which shipbuilders in the Arabian Peninsula and Mesopotamia historically obtained their hardwoods.

Tom Vosmer, director of the Traditional Boats of Oman Project, noted of ancient ship building in Oman, “Most, if not all, planking timber had to be imported: teak (Techona grandis), venteak (Lythracea lanceolata), mango (Mangifera indica), as did spar timber.” Phillips adds: “If the ship were built at Khor Rori or even at Salalah, teak lumber from India was almost certainly available for purchase on the docks at Khor Rori.” Severin added, “The timber for building Omani ships is brought nearly 1300 miles from the Malabar coast of India. It is a trade which goes as far back as the earliest records, because Oman lacks trees large enough to provide first-class boat timber.” However, would this timber imported from India have been available to Nephi at Khor Rori in the sixth century bc? In the year 2000 the World Heritage Committee of the United Nations’ Education, Scientific and Cultural Organization (UNESCO) designated Khor Rori as a World Heritage site, noting that trade in frankincense was “one of the most important trading activities of the ancient and medieval world.” German maritime archaeologist Norbert Weismann, who specializes in Oman, writes of Khor Rori, “Certainly it was involved in the traffic to India in Greco-Roman times, but there was trade with India much earlier.” Nephi’s description of working “timbers of curious workmanship” hints that the timbers were possibly pre-cut woods (workmanship) from a foreign location. An example for pre-cut timbers being exported was “Almug” (1 Kings 10:11), a hardwood used for building the temple. Almug was shipped from Ophir but was believed to have originated in India. Almug appears in the plural form, which Biblical scholars have taken to mean that the wood was delivered in planks. When it was written, the Periplus of the Erythraean Sea noted that India was importing beams and rafters to Oman. How could the timbers have been curious to Nephi if he had logged and cut the lumber himself?

[MG 2.0]

You’re countering one apologetic resource with another apologetic resource. Who wins?

No one. There are countervailing opinions. If I’m not mistaken, the quote from my source says that Nephi doesn’t say where he got the timbers to build the ship.

And that’s true.

India, via other trade routes and supply chains? Maybe. It’s conjecture.

But it’s more than just saying “It’s all a tale tale”, and then being done with it.

Regards,
MG

[Shulem]

Access to Long, Straight Hardwoods
Jeff Lindsay suggests, “it is reasonable to argue that if locals relied in imported wood for key ships’ components, Nephi may also have needed to.”

Then maybe Jeff Lindsay might like to explain how it was that after the space of many days of arriving in Bountiful, why did Nephi have to strike two stones to build a fire for the bellows he had to construct for tool making? Couldn't he have just used one of the 24/7 torches that were handy from the locals or perhaps from a fire pit made by someone in the family who refused to wait for him to get off his holy mountain?

Hole in the script.

[MG 2.0]

Have you read this essay?

https://journal.interpreterfoundation.o ... is-harbor/

Shulem hasn’t. He doesn’t read apologetic material. My guess is that others are in the same boat…pun intended…that he has built for himself to restrict his speculations.

Khor Rori.

Regards,
MG

This place?

Not at that time. More like this place:



https://bookofmormonevidences.blogspot. ... -ephi.html

Regards,
MG

[Shulem]

You’re countering one apologetic resource with another apologetic resource. Who wins?

No one. There are countervailing opinions. If I’m not mistaken, the quote from my source says that Nephi doesn’t say where he got the timbers to build the ship.

And that’s true.

India, via other trade routes and supply chains? Maybe. It’s conjecture.

But it’s more than just saying “It’s all a tale tale”, and then being done with it.

Regards,
MG

Both can't be true and it's par for the course that Mormon apologists disagree with each other like a house divided among itself. And a house divided cannot stand. Both theories cannot be right. Therefore, the house remains divided! MG, try reading the Book of Mormon with a more critical eye and use Joseph Smith as your guide. That's what I do.

But the verse given by Nephi tells us enough that nobody from the outside assisted Nephi and his brethren in acquiring timber. Recall that Nephi made it clear that all things had been prepared for them upon their entering Bountiful: "all these things were prepared of the Lord that we might not perish" Or in other words, the Lord prepared *everything* for them right there in Bountiful:

• Fruit

• Wild honey

• Timber

We read that Joseph Smith imagined Nephi and his brethren going forth within the land of Bountiful and chopped down timbers with the tools forged by Nephi. Notice the "GO FORTH" in Bountiful to accomplish this task. Therefore, the timbers were had *IN* Bountiful and processed *IN* Bountiful in which all these things were prepared of the Lord that we might not perish.

1 And it came to pass that they did worship the Lord, and did go forth with me; and we did work timbers of curious workmanship. And the Lord did show me from time to time after what manner I should work the timbers of the ship.

2 Now I, Nephi, did not work the timbers after the manner which was learned by men, neither did I build the ship after the manner of men; but I did build it after the manner which the Lord had shown unto me; wherefore, it was not after the manner of men.

[dastardly stem]

This is the silliness of apologetics though. I mean we can take "we did work timbers of curious workmanship" any way we want, I suppose. To apologists if it fits with a "oh, the wood was imported and bought by this migrants, praise God", then the worked over timbers get another working over by Nephi.

Also:

For example, maritime archaeologist Tim Severin constructed in Oman a replica of Sindbad’s sailing ship, which would have been smaller than Nephi’s

Let's see:

Sinbad the Sailor is a fictional mariner and the hero of a story-cycle of Middle Eastern origin. He is described as hailing from Baghdad during the early Abbasid Caliphate (8th and 9th centuries A.D.).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinbad_the_Sailor

Any old story that might find some possible connection will do. Even a made up guy from 1200 years afterward, from a completely different locale, can be used to tell us it's quite likely Nephi and co built a much finer ship, because it's possible the wood was imported from India at a time no one can possibly know about.

Yeah yeah yeah...many things that seem outlandish are possible. They only argue that crazy ideas are possible because it helps people save their faith. But in the end, who cares? Anything is possible. That isn't addressing the points of criticism. Its all so terribly unlikely the story itself has to have a God magically making it happen.

"well, anything is possible with God". Oh great. So what? How about, "anything is possible without God"? how is anything is possible convincing anyone that some crazy sounding thing actually happened?

[MG 2.0]

Recall that Nephi made it clear that all things had been prepared for them upon their entering Bountiful: "all these things were prepared of the Lord that we might not perish" Or in other words, the Lord prepared *everything* for them right there in Bountiful:

• Fruit

• Wild honey

• Timber

We read that Joseph Smith imagined Nephi and his brethren going forth within the land of Bountiful and chopped down timbers with the tools forged by Nephi. Notice the "GO FORTH" in Bountiful to accomplish this task. Therefore, the timbers were had *IN* Bountiful and processed *IN* Bountiful in which all these things were prepared of the Lord that we might not perish.

Bolded words: your conjecture/interpretation. The fact is, all things WERE prepared. Now…what does that REALLY mean?

Regards,
MG

[dastardly stem]

Bolded words: your conjecture/interpretation. The fact is, all things WERE prepared. Now…what does that REALLY mean?

Regards,
MG

It means anything is possible...and nothing more.