What Do People Here Believe?

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

What parts of Mormonism were a fabricated farce?

- Doc

As we mature and gain experience and understanding we reach certain pivot points where what was once little understood becomes open to further enlightenment and comprehension. It’s a natural progression unless that process is inhibited or stumped along the way. You can see examples of this all around you. Education follows that pattern. The workplace follows that pattern. Relationships follow that pattern. Religious/metaphysical knowledge and understanding follows that pattern. Scientific knowledge and understanding follows that pattern.

As I grew and matured I came across things that didn’t fit in with my traditional views and understandings of ‘Mormonism’ and the Restoration. Science and religion. Conflicts in moral values. Creationism and scientism. Etc.

Pivot points.

Just like many, I gradually…and then suddenly…hit the wall. Where to go? Hard times. Very hard.

I had to decide where and what to do. And as it was, I had a family that was moving along, generally, on a traditional ‘LDS path’. So for a while I mimicked that activity as best I could. It was hard. Very hard.

Somewhere along the line I decided to do more study and also look at trying to keep a balance in what I was reading. To look at everything and turn it all upside down and look at everything I could both pro and con. Science. Religion. Philosophical views maintained by believers and non believers. Etc.

A gradual pivoting took place. I decided that it would NOT be unreasonable to move forward with a tentative/conditional belief and faith in a creator God. Small as it was having started from a point of general non belief. As that ‘seed’ grew I was able to then come back to those areas of church history, science and religion, moral discrepancies, etc., and work on those from the perspective of believing in God. I continued to ask the question, “If God exists…then?” I looked at various puzzle pieces that didn’t seem to fit and looked to see why they didn’t SEEM to fit and then look at various options and perspectives…with the help of others…that helped those pieces come together more uniformly. Perfectly? Sometimes. Always? Not completely.

A reconstruction of faith beyond/different from what had been. A new beginning. A rebirth of sorts.

What once was lost to my understanding because of incomplete understanding was now open to my consciousness where it hadn’t been before. Much work. Much patience. And some deep thought, prayer, and introspection.

I realized that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints stood a greater chance of being ‘God’s Truth’ than any other system of belief and/or understanding in the worldwide market place of ideas/philosophies. It was for EVERYONE that was willing to accept Jesus Christ and be willing to conform their lives to living a fullness of His Gospel.

It didn’t happen over night. Did I become stuck in ruts along the way? Yes. But I kept the wheels turning and kept moving rather than staying stuck and giving up the fight for faith.

Those things that had led me to think that Mormonism was a ‘fabricated farce’ no longer held the weight that they had. In fact, I came to see how those things actually fit into a system where God allows for agency, growth, and understanding on the part of His children.

Here I am. And there you are! Probably more than you asked for.

Regards,
MG

Actually, you didn’t answer my question at all. It’s just vagueries. We’ll try this again. What parts of Mormonism were a fabricated farce? Please be specific about the “fabricated farce” that caused you to apostatize.

- Doc

[Marcus]

A decision to believe in a god lead to this:

I realized that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints stood a greater chance of being ‘God’s Truth’ than any other system of belief and/or understanding in the worldwide market place of ideas/philosophies.

But previously,

I had to decide where and what to do. And as it was, I had a family that was moving along, generally, on a traditional ‘LDS path’. So for a while I mimicked that activity as best I could....

What an amazing coincidence that the religion in which mg was already tightly enmeshed, which he was already "mimicking" and which he had clearly decided he had to stay in-- would turn out to be the world-wide best choice!

All he had to do was figure out how to get around the "fabricated farce" of Mormonism and his "realization that the faith of our fathers was point in fact, false."

I understand a little better why he has to put everyone down who got to that point and made a different choice, and why his arguments are so inconsistent, if not downright untruthful.

He has a conclusion that he starts with, and he can't convlude differently, no matter what the facts are.

That's a rough life to have to live in order to fit in with those around you.

[MG 2.0]

As we mature and gain experience and understanding we reach certain pivot points where what was once little understood becomes open to further enlightenment and comprehension. It’s a natural progression unless that process is inhibited or stumped along the way. You can see examples of this all around you. Education follows that pattern. The workplace follows that pattern. Relationships follow that pattern. Religious/metaphysical knowledge and understanding follows that pattern. Scientific knowledge and understanding follows that pattern.

As I grew and matured I came across things that didn’t fit in with my traditional views and understandings of ‘Mormonism’ and the Restoration. Science and religion. Conflicts in moral values. Creationism and scientism. Etc.

Pivot points.

Just like many, I gradually…and then suddenly…hit the wall. Where to go? Hard times. Very hard.

I had to decide where and what to do. And as it was, I had a family that was moving along, generally, on a traditional ‘LDS path’. So for a while I mimicked that activity as best I could. It was hard. Very hard.

Somewhere along the line I decided to do more study and also look at trying to keep a balance in what I was reading. To look at everything and turn it all upside down and look at everything I could both pro and con. Science. Religion. Philosophical views maintained by believers and non believers. Etc.

A gradual pivoting took place. I decided that it would NOT be unreasonable to move forward with a tentative/conditional belief and faith in a creator God. Small as it was having started from a point of general non belief. As that ‘seed’ grew I was able to then come back to those areas of church history, science and religion, moral discrepancies, etc., and work on those from the perspective of believing in God. I continued to ask the question, “If God exists…then?” I looked at various puzzle pieces that didn’t seem to fit and looked to see why they didn’t SEEM to fit and then look at various options and perspectives…with the help of others…that helped those pieces come together more uniformly. Perfectly? Sometimes. Always? Not completely.

A reconstruction of faith beyond/different from what had been. A new beginning. A rebirth of sorts.

What once was lost to my understanding because of incomplete understanding was now open to my consciousness where it hadn’t been before. Much work. Much patience. And some deep thought, prayer, and introspection.

I realized that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints stood a greater chance of being ‘God’s Truth’ than any other system of belief and/or understanding in the worldwide market place of ideas/philosophies. It was for EVERYONE that was willing to accept Jesus Christ and be willing to conform their lives to living a fullness of His Gospel.

It didn’t happen over night. Did I become stuck in ruts along the way? Yes. But I kept the wheels turning and kept moving rather than staying stuck and giving up the fight for faith.

Those things that had led me to think that Mormonism was a ‘fabricated farce’ no longer held the weight that they had. In fact, I came to see how those things actually fit into a system where God allows for agency, growth, and understanding on the part of His children.

Here I am. And there you are! Probably more than you asked for.

Regards,
MG

Actually, you didn’t answer my question at all. It’s just vagueries. We’ll try this again. What parts of Mormonism were a fabricated farce? Please be specific about the “fabricated farce” that caused you to apostatize.

- Doc

I did answer your question. You’re blind to it.

My response to you stands. Take it or leave it. Let me guess…

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

A decision to believe in a god lead to this:

I realized that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints stood a greater chance of being ‘God’s Truth’ than any other system of belief and/or understanding in the worldwide market place of ideas/philosophies.

But previously,

I had to decide where and what to do. And as it was, I had a family that was moving along, generally, on a traditional ‘LDS path’. So for a while I mimicked that activity as best I could....

What an amazing coincidence that the religion in which mg was already tightly enmeshed, which he was already "mimicking" and which he had clearly decided he had to stay in-- would turn out to be the world-wide best choice!

All he had to do was figure out how to get around the "fabricated farce" of Mormonism and his "realization that the faith of our fathers was point in fact, false."

I understand a little better why he has to put everyone down who got to that point and made a different choice, and why his arguments are so inconsistent, if not downright untruthful.

He has a conclusion that he starts with, and he can't convlude differently, no matter what the facts are.

That's a rough life to have to live in order to fit in with those around you.

You, as usual, are twisting my words and cherry picking to construct your own meaning/conclusions. The fact is, you have it wrong.

Those that read my response to Doc carefully will see that.

But thanks for your contribution, being what it is.

Regards,
MG

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

And this, right here, is the game MG plays. He never apostatized, he never examined Mormonism like most of has, and he’s here to shill for his faith because that’s what he does. Years ago he pretended to be a ‘nuanced’ thinker and wasn’t a ‘black and white’ kind of guy. I called him out as an apologist, and he swore up and down he wasn’t an apologist. Years and years later he’s still playing games, baring his testimonkey (like above), and has been outed, once again, as a goddamn lying donkey.

Pathetic.

- Doc

[dastardly stem]

In another thread MG says:

This is going to sound AWFULLY reductionist to you, but in my mind I have come…through my own personal experiences…to believe that faith precedes the miracle. That is, knowing who or what God is doesn’t come in one fell swoop. It’s a process of obedience, prayer, study, and understanding. God reveals his nature and being as one PRACTICES faith.

God reveals Himself according to His own time and His own way. Not ours. I’ve come to really believe that. And it’s different strokes for different folks.

Granted, that’s not always an easy thing to do. It requires patience and continued desire to know God rather than reject Him out of hand because He doesn’t simply reveal Himself, as it were, on a silver platter of understanding.

I think that explains it fine. You have to really imagine God, or as he puts it have faith he is there. Live a life as if he is there, tell yourself all the time he is there, treat him as real and is behind everything you do and as you do that, you really think there's a God. Its no different for any particular religion--set it up so you won't let yourself deny it.

That feels like a terrible way to go to me, but people do it. I'm happy to see MG open up enough to say he struggled and found himself, in the midst of the struggle, in a dark place. I can relate. I can relate to trying to force it too. I can't relate in sticking it out in the trying to force it place though. I can imagine myself in a similar place as he, having struggled and trying to force it, coming out in the end as being a believer again. Seems miserable. I doubt I'd be able to shed my skepticism.

[MG 2.0]

He never apostatized.

That much of what you said is true.

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

In another thread MG says:

This is going to sound AWFULLY reductionist to you, but in my mind I have come…through my own personal experiences…to believe that faith precedes the miracle. That is, knowing who or what God is doesn’t come in one fell swoop. It’s a process of obedience, prayer, study, and understanding. God reveals his nature and being as one PRACTICES faith.

God reveals Himself according to His own time and His own way. Not ours. I’ve come to really believe that. And it’s different strokes for different folks.

Granted, that’s not always an easy thing to do. It requires patience and continued desire to know God rather than reject Him out of hand because He doesn’t simply reveal Himself, as it were, on a silver platter of understanding.

I think that explains it fine. You have to really imagine God, or as he puts it have faith he is there. Live a life as if he is there, tell yourself all the time he is there, treat him as real and is behind everything you do and as you do that, you really think there's a God. Its no different for any particular religion--set it up so you won't let yourself deny it.

That feels like a terrible way to go to me, but people do it. I'm happy to see MG open up enough to say he struggled and found himself, in the midst of the struggle, in a dark place. I can relate. I can relate to trying to force it too. I can't relate in sticking it out in the trying to force it place though. I can imagine myself in a similar place as he, having struggled and trying to force it, coming out in the end as being a believer again. Seems miserable. I doubt I'd be able to shed my skepticism.

You, along with Doc…and others…are putting words in my mouth. You lack understanding and/or ignore what I’m actually saying. You cherry pick, interpret according to your own personal biases, etc., wash and repeat.

I invite others to go back and read what I actually said in full context…my words…and not fall prey to those who would corrupt what has been said in order to fit an predetermined agenda/outcome.

As we mature and gain experience and understanding we reach certain pivot points where what was once little understood becomes open to further enlightenment and comprehension. It’s a natural progression unless that process is inhibited or stumped along the way. You can see examples of this all around you. Education follows that pattern. The workplace follows that pattern. Relationships follow that pattern. Religious/metaphysical knowledge and understanding follows that pattern. Scientific knowledge and understanding follows that pattern.

As I grew and matured I came across things that didn’t fit in with my traditional views and understandings of ‘Mormonism’ and the Restoration. Science and religion. Conflicts in moral values. Creationism and scientism. Etc.

Pivot points.

Just like many, I gradually…and then suddenly…hit the wall. Where to go? Hard times. Very hard.

I had to decide where and what to do. And as it was, I had a family that was moving along, generally, on a traditional ‘LDS path’. So for a while I mimicked that activity as best I could. It was hard. Very hard.

Somewhere along the line I decided to do more study and also look at trying to keep a balance in what I was reading. To look at everything and turn it all upside down and look at everything I could both pro and con. Science. Religion. Philosophical views maintained by believers and non believers. Etc.

A gradual pivoting took place. I decided that it would NOT be unreasonable to move forward with a tentative/conditional belief and faith in a creator God. Small as it was having started from a point of general non belief. As that ‘seed’ grew I was able to then come back to those areas of church history, science and religion, moral discrepancies, etc., and work on those from the perspective of believing in God. I continued to ask the question, “If God exists…then?” I looked at various puzzle pieces that didn’t seem to fit and looked to see why they didn’t SEEM to fit and then look at various options and perspectives…with the help of others…that helped those pieces come together more uniformly. Perfectly? Sometimes. Always? Not completely.

A reconstruction of faith beyond/different from what had been. A new beginning. A rebirth of sorts.

What once was lost to my understanding because of incomplete understanding was now open to my consciousness where it hadn’t been before. Much work. Much patience. And some deep thought, prayer, and introspection.

I realized that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints stood a greater chance of being ‘God’s Truth’ than any other system of belief and/or understanding in the worldwide market place of ideas/philosophies. It was for EVERYONE that was willing to accept Jesus Christ and be willing to conform their lives to living a fullness of His Gospel.

It didn’t happen over night. Did I become stuck in ruts along the way? Yes. But I kept the wheels turning and kept moving rather than staying stuck and giving up the fight for faith.

Those things that had led me to think that Mormonism was a ‘fabricated farce’ no longer held the weight that they had. In fact, I came to see how those things actually fit into a system where God allows for agency, growth, and understanding on the part of His children.

Regards,
MG

[Marcus]

A decision to believe in a god lead to this:

I realized that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints stood a greater chance of being ‘God’s Truth’ than any other system of belief and/or understanding in the worldwide market place of ideas/philosophies.

But previously,

I had to decide where and what to do. And as it was, I had a family that was moving along, generally, on a traditional ‘LDS path’. So for a while I mimicked that activity as best I could....

What an amazing coincidence that the religion in which mg was already tightly enmeshed, which he was already "mimicking" and which he had clearly decided he had to stay in-- would turn out to be the world-wide best choice!

All he had to do was figure out how to get around the "fabricated farce" of Mormonism and his "realization that the faith of our fathers was point in fact, false."

I understand a little better why he has to put everyone down who got to that point and made a different choice, and why his arguments are so inconsistent, if not downright untruthful.

He has a conclusion that he starts with, and he can't convlude differently, no matter what the facts are.

That's a rough life to have to live in order to fit in with those around you.

You, as usual, are twisting my words and cherry picking to construct your own meaning/conclusions. The fact is, you have it wrong….

I thought you weren’t “having this discussion” with me and that you didn’t read my posts, otherwise I wouldn’t have spoken in the third person.

But, since you’ve decided to engage, how do you reconcile the amazing coincidence that the religion in which you were already tightly enmeshed, which you were already "mimicking" and which you had clearly decided you had to stay in-- would turn out to be the world-wide best choice?

Not to mention that the issues surrounding the, to use your words, “fabricated farce” and the “faith of our fathers [being] false” are still there. Your arguments are typically so inconsistent and vague, which suggests that these issues aren’t satisfactorily resolved, even to you. How does a belief in god translate into a need to support falsehoods in a particular religion?

[dastardly stem]

You, along with Doc…and others…are putting words in my mouth. You lack understanding and/or ignore what I’m actually saying. You cherry pick, interpret according to your own personal biases, etc., wash and repeat.

I invite others to go back and read what I actually said in full context…my words…and not fall prey to those who would corrupt what has been said in order to fit an predetermined agenda/outcome.

Hey man, I was defending you. I didn't put words in your mouth. I quoted you and explained in what way I can understand your points.