your argument that Shulem is "claiming to know that Joseph did so not because he believed it but rather because he had a secret about Delmarva" is just weird. where do you get that?
"Chile is nothing more than an afterthought to raise faith in Smith’s Book of Mormon location which he kept SECRET at the beginning." - Shulem
Dan explained why Joseph, in 1830, is the likely source of the Chile comments. Shulem then explains why Joseph didn't really mean it like that because Joseph was keeping Delmarva a secret. I suggested he would need to read Joseph's mind to known that.
Here are some statements I’ve made in other threads with regard to Joseph’s “secret” geography that I hope clarifies my point:
Shulem wrote:Today, looking back at my mentality of a 10-year old I chuckle at how I so easily accepted that theory. I failed to appreciate how the Book of Mormon kept meticulous count of numbers and the chronology maintained therein was a masterpiece interwoven within the stories. It was consistent with the Old World and everything about it held together quite well. I also failed to appreciate how references to measurement and distance played a part in describing the landform in relation to cities scattered thereon and how people in various ways and fashion migrated about and maintained a close society of trade and communication. The authors (Joseph Smith) of the stories maintained what seems a precise description throughout the narrative. In other words, Smith had a map in which his secret story was based.
Shulem wrote:It's fair to assume in 1830, all of the members that joined Smith's new sect assumed that the narrow neck was the Isthmus down in Central America knowing how North and South America are joined by a narrow land bridge or neck. Joseph Smith is not on record for denying that or stating where the narrow neck was physically located on the globe or atlas. Smith kept it a SECRET. Don't ask, don't tell. That seems to be the policy. The absence of an authoritative statement on the location of the narrow neck is hard to understand considering how Smith was so quick to identify other lands having to do with ancient people such as Adam in the land of Missouri and it being the center place of Zion. So why did Smith keep it a secret?
Shulem wrote:The gist of the matter has been presented right here on this message board and you are getting a far better presentation of Joseph Smith and his secret geography than you will ever get from the likes of any of the apologists who stumble about inventing models and justifying the idea that there is archeological evidence hidden away or buried up unto the Lord. The apologists are all wrong. It took a critic to come to the truth and explain it.
Shulem wrote:Joseph Smith knew his Book of Mormon geography was fiction. He knew that Nephite coins and armor could never be recovered from the dirt because they were never minted or forged in the first place. He knew the temples of Nephi and Bountiful were illusions in his own mind. But unlike Smith, his successors believed in Book of Mormon geography -- they believed that there really was a place where the temple of Bountiful was built and that there must be archeological evidence buried up and hidden, a place known only to the Lord -- a secret place. But none of the Church Presidents have a scrap of faith or the vision capable of producing a revelation to reveal the spot of ground where such evidence and proof can be obtained.
Shulem wrote:I said that my earlier work as a faithful believer "abandoned Delmarva because it lacked archeological evidence as well as certain features described in the Book of Mormon text" so I couldn't make it work from the perspective of making a perfect all-around match. There are no ruins on Delmarva. The city of Bountiful is not there. Certain descriptions about terrain and land features are not wholly descriptive of Delmarva but now I have come to learn that Smith took plenty of license in writing things into his script in which he was going to keep the location a secret. Besides, he had never been to Delmarva! He didn't know the land.
The important part is that on 18 November 1830, the Observer and Telegraph published a statement from a witness stating that Oliver Cowdery gave a public address in Kirtland, and included the information that Lehi’s party “landed on the coast of Chili 600 years before the coming of Christ".
Okay, okay, let’s look at the citation hearsay published in a local newspaper and see what it says.
Observer and Telegraph wrote:To convince the world that this record and prophecy is a Divine Revelation, three men, Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer and Martin Harris, have subscribed their names to an article in this "Book of Mormon," solemnly declaring that they saw an Angel come down from heaven, who showed them those plates, and made known to them it was given by inspiration, and "they know of a surety it is true," &c. &c. This new Revelation, they say is especially designed for the benefit, or rather for the christianizing of the Aborigines of America; who, as they affirm, are a part of the tribe of Manasseh, and whose ancestors landed on the coast of Chili 600 years before the coming of Christ, and from them descended all the Indians of America.
It can be argued that these three men were closer to Joseph Smith than anyone and would have known more about the origins of the Book of Mormon than anyone else. I have no problem with that. But this declaration in the paper is hearsay and is NOT a citation given by Smith at the time the book was first published. As I mentioned earlier, Chile is not mentioned in the Title Page which introduces the Book of Mormon nor in the Testimony of the Witnesses. The only sure geographical feature given by Joseph Smith affirming an actual location of the Book of Mormon is the hill Cumorah in which the plates were buried. The mentioning of Chile cannot be substantiated as a revelation from Joseph Smith when he first publishing the book. It can’t be proven he even said that in 1830, but I don’t doubt he did because Smith was a constant liar making things up as we went along in order to please his crowd. That is my point!
I hate to see critics such as Dan being duped by the prophet all over again. Isn’t one time enough? I’m pulling the curtain away from Smith’s lying caper. He lied, lied, and lied again at every turn.
I suppose its possible that Oliver Cowdery made that up out of the blue on his own, but even then it pushes the timing of the Chile statements to 1830 and (since the statement was made by the primary scribe of the Book of Mormon) it places it very close to Joseph Smith.
Yes, it’s possible that Oliver made it up out of the blue just as it’s possible that one of the Pratt brothers made it up when first reading the Book of Mormon and offering their ideas. But even more so, it’s possible that Joseph Smith made it up for the reasons I’ve explained in my threads. Right?
But in the end, whoever made it up out of the blue, it matters NOT! The Book of Mormon is pure fiction and the geography therein will never be substantiated by archeological evidence. And Joseph Smith knew that from the get-go.
Also, note that in 1830 (just nine months after the publication of the Book of Mormon) Oliver Cowdery was not placing the Lehite landing in Delmarva. If Delmarva was the template used, why wouldn't he place the Lehite landing in Delmarva? I understand Shulem thinks this was an intentional attempt to shift focus away from Delmarva because there was no proof of the Book of Mormon to be found there, but I don't think that argument has much weight. Both Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery made statements about the Book of Mormon events playing out in places where there was no proof of the Book of Mormon. For example, look at Cowdery's Hill Cumorah comments in the Wentworth Papers. In other words, I don't think Oliver would have thrown the entire Book of Mormon geography under the bus just because there wasn't evidence of Nephites and Lamanites in Delmarva.
Zosimus,
I’ve discussed Cowdery’s published statements he made about Cumorah being the actual site in which the final battles of the Book of Mormon took place. He got all that from the horse’s mouth. But the same horse elected to say nothing about Delmarva and for all the reasons I’ve explained in my threads. Oliver accepted the idea that artifacts of the final wars at Cumorah must have rusted away or were buried in the deep soil down under the mound. But had he approached the ancient ruins of Bountiful he would have thought to see the stones of the temple mount and the ruins and stone pillars of the ancient Nephites including carvings attesting to the very hieroglyphs copied from the gold plates. But all that was not meant to be. Why? Because there is no Bountiful other than the fairytale told in the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith knew that. Dan Vogel and I agree on that point! So not all is lost.
So, you admit that you will not be able to use the text in order to prove me wrong. I agree with you. The conclusion is inevitably in my favor.
I admit noone will be able to use the text to prove you wrong. Just like noone will be able to use the text to prove Sorenson wrong, or Meldrum or Vogel, or whoever dreamed up the model that photoshopped out all of South America to create a prefect narrow neck of land in Ecuador.
I don't yet agree that the conclusion is inevitably in your favor because you haven't provided enough examples of how Delmarva matches the internal geography of the Book of Mormon. There are more mismatches than matches in my opinion. The only thing that lines up as far as I can tell is a narrow neck of land. It is still missing the narrow strip of wilderness, the east wilderness, the west wilderness, a river that has its source in an upland wilderness south of Zarahemla. And the distances between points are not at the right scale.
I point these out not because I don't see merit in your model, but because I'd already looked at Delmarva a few years ago and I didn't see enough convergence with the Book of Mormon geography to dig any deeper. I'm open to anything you might share. PS, I'm not much concerned about the merits of the hemispheric model because it obviously doesn't match up with the Book of Mormon. I'm more interested how Delmarva would match.
The only thing that lines up as far as I can tell is a narrow neck of land.
I'm more interested how Delmarva would match.
The points above have serious merit and I agree and hope to advance your willingness to explore further in realizing that the Golden Key to the geography of the Book of Mormon is the narrow neck in which Smith borrowed for his story. Not that he transferred everything perfectly because he had not been to Delmarva and didn’t know what it looked like. But he had maps and he had an imagination in which to build his story. I explain all that in my previous threads.
I’m pleased that we can find some agreement in this respect. You might also agree that there simply is no other narrow neck anywhere in the hemisphere that better matches what’s described for Delmarva’s neck. That is a very important checkbox in locating the landform Smith may have used to help him with the story plot.
Please select which answer is the best match for the "narrow neck" as described in the text of the Book of Mormon in which the narrow neck was an important feature of the geographical terrain.
A) Panama
B) Belize-Yucatan base
C) Tehuantepec
D) Niagara Peninsula
E) Delmarva Peninsula
Permit me to further expound and clarify an important concept given in the text of the Book of Mormon which describes what the author (Joseph Smith) visualized as he told the story about Lehi’s landing in America. Let’s permit the author to express himself and reveal what he was thinking. We are informed that Lehi landed and the families disembarked from the ship and began to work the soil and establish themselves on the land. We understand that colonization upon the land took a general trek northward and various communities and cities were founded and established and the first main territory was called the “land of Nephi.” Later, we learn about another territory called Zarahemla and within it there was a city called Zarahemla. Thirdly, there is Bountiful to the north.
Having introduced the above setting we further learn that the inhabitants felt like they were “nearly surrounded by water.” My previous threads examine this in quite a bit of detail. I won’t link to those posts but encourage readers to study those threads. For now, I want to add new perspective in order to capitalize on what the author was thinking as he dictated the story with his face in a hat. We are given to understand that the inhabitants felt they were living upon an “isle of the sea.” We learn that the inhabitants of the land felt “surrounded by water” and more or less believed they were upon an “isle of the sea.” I’ve covered this point quite extensively in the other threads but would now like to expound further about what this implies.
Imagine if you will: You are Nephi or Alma.
You are standing on the land that has been likened to an “isle” which is a land that is “nearly surrounded by water.” This land is not like Israel in the Old World that has a single sea to the west. The land in the New World has more ocean and the land is surrounded by sea unlike that of the coast of Israel in the Old World consisting of a single body of ocean which is the Mediterranean Sea. Nobody in Israel was ever made to feel that they were surrounded by water or upon an isle of the sea. They were upon a vast continent with lands that stretched out endlessly -- to the north, south, and east.
Now again, YOU are Nephi or Alma and you’re upon the land of promise. How is it you are “nearly surrounded by water” upon an “isle of the sea” if the only coastline faces a single cardinal direction? There must be more than one coastline and multiple cardinal directions just as we read in the Book of Mormon. So, if you’re standing upon the land, you know that if you travel westward, you will eventually reach the sea, the ocean. You also know that if you travel eastward, you will likewise reach the sea, the ocean. That makes for TWO oceans, one to the right and one to the left! But these two in and of themselves don’t necessarily mean you’re surrounded by ocean. No! There must be more. And in the Book of Mormon there is more! The Sea South, that ocean that ever remains to the south. The ocean on which no city was ever built and the sea in which nobody ever set sail. And with all that, imagine the narrow neck that separates Bountiful from Desolation being flanked by ocean on both sides.
NOW, you are surrounded by water and it feels like you are upon an isle of the sea surrounded by the very ocean itself. Welcome to Joseph Smith’s land of promise. Welcome to Delmarva!
Mormon Jesus came down out of heaven and appeared in Bountiful which was the capital city in which the saints lived. This event is recorded in third Nephi. We learn how Jesus himself came down out of the sky and visited the people, graced the temple, and walked about the grounds as any man would. What is it about Bountiful that makes it so special in connecting it to a place in America in which Smith envisioned? What was the first state to be ratified into the union of the United States?
THEN, the 7th state of Maryland was admitted into the union. The west sea is on one side of the narrow neck and on the other side the east sea hugs the coastline of Delaware. Virginia became the 10th state and possessed the southern tail of the Delmarva peninsula which was the land of Nephi to the south. The three states form a perfect union that fits like a Nephite glove. Sea west, sea east, and sea south are perfectly manifested around the peninsula leading up to the narrow neck of land.
GET THE FACTS AND PUT YOUR HAND IN THE GLOVE:
And thus the Nephites were nearly surrounded by the Lamanites; nevertheless the Nephites had taken possession of all the northern parts of the land bordering on the wilderness, at the head of the river Sidon, from the east to the west, round about on the wilderness side; on the north, even until they came to the land which they called Bountiful.
And now, it was only the distance of a day and a half’s journey for a Nephite, on the line Bountiful and the land Desolation, from the east to the west sea; and thus the land of Nephi and the land of Zarahemla were nearly surrounded by water, there being a small neck of land between the land northward and the land southward.
And it came to pass that the Nephites had inhabited the land Bountiful, even from the east unto the west sea, and thus the Nephites in their wisdom, with their guards and their armies, had hemmed in the Lamanites on the south, that thereby they should have no more possession on the north, that they might not overrun the land northward.
And it came to pass that the voice of the people came, saying: Behold, we will give up the land of Jershon, which is on the east by the sea, which joins the land Bountiful, which is on the south of the land Bountiful; and this land Jershon is the land which we will give unto our brethren for an inheritance.
And it came to pass that Teancum and his men did pitch their tents in the borders of the land Bountiful; and Amalickiah did pitch his tents in the borders on the beach by the seashore, and after this manner were they driven.
And he also sent orders unto him that he should fortify the land Bountiful, and secure the narrow pass which led into the land northward, lest the Lamanites should obtain that point and should have power to harass them on every side.
Now, the king (Ammoron) had departed out of the land of Zarahemla, and had made known unto the queen concerning the death of his brother, and had gathered together a large number of men, and had marched forth against the Nephites on the borders by the west sea. And thus he was endeavoring to harass the Nephites, and to draw away a part of their forces to that part of the land, while he had commanded those whom he had left to possess the cities which he had taken, that they should also harass the Nephites on the borders by the east sea, and should take possession of their lands as much as it was in their power, according to the power of their armies.
But behold, it came to pass in the twenty and seventh year of the reign of the judges, that Teancum, by the command of Moroni—who had established armies to protect the south and the west borders of the land, and had begun his march towards the land Bountiful, that he might assist Teancum with his men in retaking the cities which they had lost—
And it came to pass that Hagoth, he being an exceedingly curious man, therefore he went forth and built him an exceedingly large ship, on the borders of the land Bountiful, by the land Desolation, and launched it forth into the west sea, by the narrow neck which led into the land northward.
And the Nephites and the armies of Moronihah were driven even into the land of Bountiful; And there they did fortify against the Lamanites, from the west sea, even unto the east; it being a day’s journey for a Nephite, on the line which they had fortified and stationed their armies to defend their north country.
And it came to pass in the seventeenth year, in the latter end of the year, the proclamation of Lachoneus had gone forth throughout all the face of the land, and they had taken their horses, and their chariots, and their cattle, and all their flocks, and their herds, and their grain, and all their substance, and did march forth by thousands and by tens of thousands, until they had all gone forth to the place which had been appointed that they should gather themselves together, to defend themselves against their enemies. And the land which was appointed was the land of Zarahemla, and the land which was between the land Zarahemla and the land Bountiful, yea, to the line which was between the land Bountiful and the land Desolation.
And now it came to pass that there were a great multitude gathered together, of the people of Nephi, round about the temple which was in the land Bountiful;
Vogel’s recent podcast interview (Aug 31, 2022) mentions Captain Kidd’s alleged treasure in association to Joseph Smith’s treasure digging. Thus, the lore of Kidd’s treasure is brough closer to Smith via the Susquehanna River which I believe is the same river in which Joseph Smith envisioned Hagoth sailing from the west sea of the narrow neck “into the land northward”.
Robert (William) Kidd, he was a pirate and eventually caught and hung, hanged, in London. So, the tale was that Robert (William) Kidd, Captain Kidd, buried his treasure along the Atlantic shore of America of the United States and so treasure digging was more prevalent along that shore but the people that were inland kind of started trying to tap into that lore also by saying that Captain Kidd may have not buried it on the shore, maybe he buried his treasure upstream, along the streamways, that connected to the Atlantic, various people would be digging for Captain Kidd’s treasure along there….
What I was going to mention was that the waterways, and one of them was that maybe Captain Kidd went up the Susquehanna River and the Susquehanna River goes through Harmony Pennsylvania. This is the river that Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery baptized themselves in and it’s the river in the house Joseph lived in was in feet of this river and they believe that in 1825 when Joseph Smith was hired by Josiah Stowell to go there, and he had dug the previous year without success….
Josiah Stowell wasn’t the first to dig on this hill either, there were two previous digs at the same location without success. So, they had imagined that the treasure of the pirates had gone up the Susquehanna and stopped there and dug a hole and buried the treasure in it and it was enchanted and so when Josiah Stowell went and hired Joseph Smith to take him there in November, so he had dug on it in the summer before this November 1825, or October, in November they finally got there and when they got there on the 11th if I’m not mistaken, they signed a contract there and this is where Joseph Smith met Isaac Hale, Emma Hale’s Father, because some of the money diggers were boarding with him.
Dan,
If Joseph Smith can imagine Captain Kidd sailing up the Susquehanna River to bury treasure then it’s equally reasonable that he could envision Hagoth sailing up the same river to deposit his treasure which consisted of people looking for a better life.
