The Internet Is Leading Many LDS To Abandon Their Faith

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
User avatar
Everybody Wang Chung
God
Posts: 1686
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 1:52 am

The Internet Is Leading Many LDS To Abandon Their Faith

Post by Everybody Wang Chung »

Interesting article by Jana Riess about new research that is showing the internet is having a much bigger influence than previously thought in abandoning the LDS faith.

Sociologist, Stephen Bullivant discusses "the erosion of Latter-day Saint attachment" and “the breakdown of religious subcultures, which has been especially profound in places such as Utah and southern Idaho where, in decades past, a person’s entire social and religious life could be spent around Latter-day Saints."

His research indicates that the internet is destroying the LDS social enclave. “This was important for many of the Mormons I interviewed, who were encountering new things about Mormon history online. But even more than this, they’re starting to hang out (online) with non-Mormons and ex-Mormons, people who are very much in your boat, and that becomes this other world you can inhabit.”



Jana Riess: Why Americans, including Latter-day Saints, are leaving their churches
If even the LDS Church is starting to bleed members, “that shows what a big issue this is for everyone else.”
(Francisco Kjolseth | The Salt Lake Tribune) A General Conference in 2019. A British sociologist says the internet has led many Latter-day Saints to abandon their faith.

By Jana Riess | The Salt Lake Tribune
| Dec. 2, 2022, 6:00 a.m.
As many as a third of Americans now claim no religious affiliation, and British sociologist Stephen Bullivant has some ideas about why.

In his new book, “Nonverts: The Making of Ex-Christian America,” due this week from Oxford University Press, Bullivant reflects in often highly entertaining fashion about the trend lines. Although it’s full of statistics, “Nonverts” remains a lively read for ordinary people — a rare feat in a sea of dry data-driven books.

As a researcher, Bullivant wanted to know why Americans, once considered the exception to the secularization that has happened in Europe and elsewhere, are suddenly losing their religion.

And it is sudden, he notes. “This kind of religious change in a society doesn’t normally happen in the space of 20 or 30 years,” he told Religion News Service in a Zoom interview. “It’s been within the space of one or perhaps two generations that we’ve seen a sudden surge.”

In the 1990s, nonreligion began climbing from its baseline of around 7% of the population to what is between three and five times that figure now, depending on the survey. (All national surveys show the same rising trend line, but they differ as to the degree.)

Bullivant says the majority of this shift is caused by people actively leaving the religion of their childhood (the “nonverts” of the title), not because they were born into nonreligious families (though that trend is coming).

“So there is a story about why there is this rise of the nones. But to me, the more interesting story is why it didn’t happen earlier.” Why did this change start not in the 1960s, when American culture was in a state of upheaval, but in the ‘90s?

Politics, say other scholars, who see nonreligion as a backlash against the GOP’s “Contract With America” and the rise of the religious right. That’s likely part of it, Bullivant said, pointing to how quickly the American public changed its mind on same-sex marriage. But he looks to three other developments to help us understand why people are leaving the fold.

First, there was the end of the Cold War. For decades, “there was a big threat of ‘godless communism,’” making it hard for anyone with religious doubts to acknowledge them publicly. The social cost of being considered un-American was just too high, keeping the numbers of religious nones artificially low.

“Then suddenly the Cold War ends, and you have people able to acknowledge being nonreligious. In fact, by the time the New Atheists rise up in the mid-2000s, it’s no longer people with no religion who are the existential threat, but people with too much religion, especially extremist religion. The New Atheism is really interesting in how it positions itself as patriotic.”

A second factor is the sudden appearance of the internet, which made it possible for like-minded people to meet one another. “If you were brought up in small-town Kansas, you probably weren’t going to find other people who were having religious doubts. The internet opened up those spaces for people to play around with ideas, hang out with other people, and get really deep into various subcultures.”

The internet has been particularly important for people leaving conservative religions such as evangelical Protestantism or Mormonism. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is actually the first main example Bullivant uses in the book, which is surprising because it’s such a tiny percentage of the population, around 1.5%.

Bullivant chose it because it’s a “canary in the coal mine” story — if even the Latter-day Saints are starting to bleed members, “that shows what a big issue this is for everyone else.” The erosion of Latter-day Saint attachment, he said, indicates “the breakdown of religious subcultures,” which has been especially profound in places such as Utah and southern Idaho where, in decades past, a person’s entire social and religious life could be spent around Latter-day Saints.

The internet chips away at that enclave. “This was important for many of the Mormons I interviewed, who were encountering new things about Mormon history online. But even more than this, they’re starting to hang out with non-Mormons and ex-Mormons, people who are very much in your boat, and that becomes this other world you can inhabit.”

The third factor sounds like circular logic: The nones are rising because the nones are rising. But human beings are herd creatures, Bullivant explains in the book; we tend to do what our neighbors are doing. With every headline (like the one above) that heralds the seismic shift the nation is experiencing, more people become comfortable being nonreligious.

Bullivant himself bucks the trend. The 38-year-old researcher came from a family with no religion — “I wasn’t baptized, and that’s normal in Britain” — but deviated from that path by slowly coming to Catholicism as a student. He was doing the first of his two doctorates (one in theology, the other in sociology) when he became friends with some Dominicans who would regularly invite him for dinner.

“In order to come to this guest dinner with loads of wine on a Sunday evening,” he said, “you had to have gone to the Mass beforehand.”

So he began attending Mass. He was impressed by the people he met, who were bright and kind. It was obvious that they lived what they believed and had made great sacrifices to become priests. Eventually, one of those friends offered to baptize him. So after a three-week research trip to Rome for his dissertation, Bullivant officially joined the Catholic Church. His wife is now also a member, and they are raising their four children as Catholics.

“So it’s strange: I do a lot of work on people leaving Catholicism. For every person in Britain who is raised nonreligious who becomes Christian, there’s something like 26 people who go the other way.”

It’s a helpful reminder that while social science charts trends that are sweeping and very real, each individual story is complex.

(The views expressed in this opinion piece do not necessarily reflect those of Religion News Service.)

By Jana Riess | The Salt Lake Tribune
https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2022/12 ... americans/
Last edited by Everybody Wang Chung on Sun Dec 04, 2022 4:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
"I'm on paid sabbatical from BYU in exchange for my promise to use this time to finish two books."

Daniel C. Peterson, 2014
User avatar
Dr Moore
Endowed Chair of Historical Innovation
Posts: 1828
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2020 2:16 pm
Location: Cassius University

Re: The Internet Is Leading Many LDS To Abandon Their Faith

Post by Dr Moore »

Correction: The truth is causing [negative growth]. Internet is just a patsy for LDS leaders to blame something other than themselves.
drumdude
God
Posts: 5554
Joined: Thu Oct 29, 2020 5:29 am

Re: The Internet Is Leading Many LDS To Abandon Their Faith

Post by drumdude »

FAIRmormon and Interpreter aren’t enough to stem the tide.

Have they tried paying people to stay?
Informant
CTR B
Posts: 154
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2022 1:56 am
Location: Woodshed
Contact:

Re: The Internet Is Leading Many LDS To Abandon Their Faith

Post by Informant »

What? I’ve never heard this before! The internet is making people irreligious all over the place. This is well known.
User avatar
Gadianton
God
Posts: 4172
Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2020 11:56 pm
Location: Elsewhere

Re: The Internet Is Leading Many LDS To Abandon Their Faith

Post by Gadianton »

I'm not sure I totally agree -- they make it sound like Mormonism is an information silo, and then here is the Internet, and it drills a hole in the silo the truth floods in and drowns people in truth.

I think the Internet has turned out to be a mixed bag, and it's making more people dumber than smarter.

So if we mean "faith" as specifically faith in Mormonism, sure, but "faith" in general? Not so sure. Yeah, people might identify with religion less overall, but look at the remaining stalwart Mormons, are they really as Mormon as they were, or has politics become a substitution good that drives them more? Let's face it, despite his effort Russ isn't going viral -- he's failing as a cult of personality, which is how he perceives himself.

The Church was in a weak position when the world connected over Cat5. The leaders had the Church on auto pilot while they drooled over real estate and essentially became an illegal for-profit investment fund bilking people out of tithing. The Church stalled on doctrine, embracing a gospel of form letters. There was nothing to get excited about. The Internet, Trumpism, Qanon, and a whole lot the stuff faith is made off came gushing through that hole in the silo wall and members began to feel alive again. They had something with energy, something that drove them the way the gospel was supposed to drive them but didn't anymore.

And so yes, the world is moving on from traditional religions, but not necessarily from faith. Look at Will S. Where Rusty has failed him, Putin has succeeded. He might still go to church, but it's Putin first, Rusty and Joseph Smith second or third, or maybe fourth.
drumdude
God
Posts: 5554
Joined: Thu Oct 29, 2020 5:29 am

Re: The Internet Is Leading Many LDS To Abandon Their Faith

Post by drumdude »

“DCP” wrote: I myself have noticed for years the way internet connections become ersatz “communities,” with people who seldom if ever physically meet each other becoming online “friends,” sometimes to the point of marginalizing or even eliminating more “real” relationships. The trend has concerned me, and far and away not only for religious reasons. But it certainly does have religious implications. And I don’t think that we in communities of faith — certainly in the Latter-day Saint community — have yet learned how to deal at all adequately with the acids of social media. (I’m very much thinking, right now, about what the Interpreter Foundation’s role ideally should be in this regard, and what we will need to have and to do in order to play that role.)
It’s not the facts causing people to leave. It’s those damn internet friendships!

Get off my lawn! Get a job and shave your beard, internet atheists! :lol:
User avatar
Doctor Scratch
B.H. Roberts Chair of Mopologetic Studies
Posts: 1210
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 7:24 pm
Location: Cassius University

Re: The Internet Is Leading Many LDS To Abandon Their Faith

Post by Doctor Scratch »

That’s an incredibly myopic post from DCP. He seems to be willfully ignoring his own substantial role in online Mormonism over the past 25+ years. I would be willing to bet that his activities online have directly or indirectly led to thousands of apostasies. And here he is openly musing about how *Interpreter* is going to help with this issue? It would be funny if it weren’t so idiotic. I mean, yeah: maybe instead of Bradshaw stealing material for a book, they should host more ice cream socials?
"If, while hoping that everybody else will be honest and so forth, I can personally prosper through unethical and immoral acts without being detected and without risk, why should I not?." --Daniel Peterson, 6/4/14
IHAQ
God
Posts: 1531
Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2020 8:00 am

Re: The Internet Is Leading Many LDS To Abandon Their Faith

Post by IHAQ »

Doctor Scratch wrote:
Sun Dec 04, 2022 4:42 am
That’s an incredibly myopic post from DCP. He seems to be willfully ignoring his own substantial role in online Mormonism over the past 25+ years. I would be willing to bet that his activities online have directly or indirectly led to thousands of apostasies. And here he is openly musing about how *Interpreter* is going to help with this issue? It would be funny if it weren’t so idiotic. I mean, yeah: maybe instead of Bradshaw stealing material for a book, they should host more ice cream socials?
I see it as DCP once again aggrandising himself. He’s positioning Interpreter (and therefore himself) as some global entity that can arrest this bleeding of members by providing information and inspiration that works better at retention than anything the Church can provide. He’s been passed over for a senior role in the Church, so he’s creating that senior role for himself in an organisation he has developed. He’s playing at General Authority.

The reality is that FAIR, FARMS, Interpreter etc have been a source of the new information that has led people away from the Church. They’ve spent decades confirming that the items the Church had been portraying as anti Mormon lies, were in fact true. And that has undermined trust in the Church. Interpreter and the like have been instrumental in helping people leave the church. Not only that, the tone of the characters involved in Interpreter, FAIR, FARMS, is one of looking down one’s nose at those with questions. They’re acerbic, rude, ridiculing, dishonest, obnoxious and unfriendly in their interactions. Bradshaw’s recent nefariousness is just the latest example in a long list. DCP himself couldn’t even secure a $10,000 donation by simply behaving reasonably.
User avatar
Moksha
God
Posts: 6113
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:13 am
Location: Koloburbia

Re: The Internet Is Leading Many LDS To Abandon Their Faith

Post by Moksha »

IHAQ wrote:
Sun Dec 04, 2022 7:06 am
The reality is that FAIR, FARMS, Interpreter, etc have been a source of new information that has led people away from the Church.
Even the Mormon internet can lead people away from the Church. Implanting thought-limiting electrodes in the general membership may be the best way to stem this disaffection tide.
Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace
User avatar
Dr. Shades
Founder and Visionary
Posts: 2042
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2020 2:48 pm
Contact:

Re: The Internet Is Leading Many LDS To Abandon Their Faith

Post by Dr. Shades »

Moksha wrote:
Sun Dec 04, 2022 9:31 am
IHAQ wrote:
Sun Dec 04, 2022 7:06 am
The reality is that FAIR, FARMS, Interpreter, etc have been a source of new information that has led people away from the Church.
Even the Mormon internet can lead people away from the Church.
Umm, . . . That’s what IHAQ just said.
"It’s ironic that the Church that people claim to be true, puts so much effort into hiding truths."
--I Have Questions, 01-25-2024
Post Reply