No, ma'am, those are trustworthy scholars

[Alphus and Omegus]

Diese Nachricht wurde auf Deutsch verfasst.

"This message was written in German."

This sentence tells nothing at all to the only people who could understand it at all. Anyone who could read it would necessarily already know what it is saying, without having to read it. So who would write such a message on metal plates?

The verses about how the Book of Mormon was written in Reformed Egyptian give the game away. No book actually written in Reformed Egyptian would include a statement saying so.

Nice catch. Yet another reason to disbelieve the claims the Book of Mormon was of ancient origin. Also, more evidence that Mormons, while nice people for the most part, are a little delusional when it comes to Mormon church claims.

I disagree. Peoples engaging in unusual practices do sometimes note their differences from the norm, such as Romans and Greeks worshipping various foreign deities and noting how they were adding them to the pantheon or viewing the foreign deities as manifestations of local ones.

That said, I believe the claim about Reformed Egyptian is interesting in light of the Grammar and Alphabet of the Egyptian Language inspired by the Book of Abraham.

In the GAEL, Smith and scribes claimed that ancient Egyptian was logographic, portraying multiple words, instead of phonographic, or sound-based. If that were true, it would have saved space to write the Book of Mormon in Egyptian instead of Hebrew.

The Egyptian claim was doubly convenient in that no one could read it, and also that it answered possible skeptical claims that etching words into gold would've been horribly slow and irritating.

[Fence Sitter]

Since plates with reformed Egyptian never existed in the first place, why label the fictional language "Reformed Egyptian"? There was never any chance that someone was going to see what didn't exist. So, what did Smith gain by calling them reformed as opposed to just Egyptian? And why bother to send Harris to the East to consult with scholars with some phony "caractors" that didn't resemble Hieroglyphs or hieratic text?

[Alphus and Omegus]

Since plates with reformed Egyptian never existed in the first place, why label the fictional language "Reformed Egyptian"? There was never any chance that someone was going to see what didn't exist. So, what did Smith gain by calling them reformed as opposed to just Egyptian? And why bother to send Harris to the East to consult with scholars with some phony "caractors" that didn't resemble Hieroglyphs or hieratic text?

He had to call them "reformed" characters in order to make them dissimilar to actual Egyptian writing, which was available but not able to be read. The Harris characters gambit was necessary to keep Harris hooked and get his money. If it had worked on Anthon, that would've been an extra benefit.

[Physics Guy]

Naming the language in which you are writing, when the only people who could understand you would necessarily already know that, is not like mentioning other unusual cultural practices.

[Nimrod]

Naming the language in which you are writing, when the only people who could understand you would necessarily already know that, is not like mentioning other unusual cultural practices.

But Mormon knew, being a prophet and seeing the future, that the plates would not only perhaps be read by someone who spoke "Reformed" Egyptian, but also would one day be translated into English (and other modern languages), and thus was imparting information to the the English (other modern language) readers that the characters on the gold plates were of "Reformed" Egyptian. (Nevermind that it was all made up and concocted by Joseph Smith.)

[Alphus and Omegus]

Naming the language in which you are writing, when the only people who could understand you would necessarily already know that, is not like mentioning other unusual cultural practices.

But Mormon knew, being a prophet and seeing the future, that the plates would not only perhaps be read by someone who spoke "Reformed" Egyptian, but also would one day be translated into English (and other modern languages), and thus was imparting information to the the English (other modern language) readers that the characters on the gold plates were of "Reformed" Egyptian. (Nevermind that it was all made up and concocted by Joseph Smith.)

Yep. I think there are a lot better things to raise doubts about the Book of Mormon. The only occurrence of "Reformed Egyptian" in the text is Mormon 9, which is said to be authored by Moroni, who is writing to the future readers of the book. He is literally explaining the book in his wrap-up. This is a fitting, if weird, place to describe RE.

30 Behold, I speak unto you as though I spake from the dead; for I know that ye shall have my words.

31 Condemn me not because of mine imperfection, neither my father, because of his imperfection, neither them who have written before him; but rather give thanks unto God that he hath made manifest unto you our imperfections, that ye may learn to be more wise than we have been.

32 And now, behold, we have written this record according to our knowledge, in the characters which are called among us the reformed Egyptian, being handed down and altered by us, according to our manner of speech.

33 And if our plates had been sufficiently large we should have written in Hebrew; but the Hebrew hath been altered by us also; and if we could have written in Hebrew, behold, ye would have had no imperfection in our record.

34 But the Lord knoweth the things which we have written, and also that none other people knoweth our language; and because that none other people knoweth our language, therefore he hath prepared means for the interpretation thereof.

[Shulem]

Yep. I think there are a lot better things to raise doubts about the Book of Mormon. The only occurrence of "Reformed Egyptian" in the text is Mormon 9, which is said to be authored by Moroni, who is writing to the future readers of the book. He is literally explaining the book in his wrap-up. This is a fitting, if weird, place to describe RE.

You're spot on, A & O. Good points.

[Physics Guy]

Yeah, I guess in context it's not so crazy that Mormon is explaining how he wrote his text. In particular he seems to be apologizing because, in order to save space on small plates, he has written in a compact notation that is somehow prone to error, because the compact notation was inherently limited in what it could clearly express. He fears that his text has "imperfections" but claims that it would not have had any, if it could only have been written in the less compact Hebrew characters.

So, no, it's not the obvious giveaway that I thought it was. It is still a weird set of claims. And of course it's just not true that any Egyptian notation was especially compact, or that any writing scheme based upon hieroglyphics would have been space-saving. That's just something that people thought before hieroglyphics were translated. So nobody who really wrote in any Egyptian-based system would have justified it by compactness.

That's just another historical inaccuracy in the Book of Mormon, though, not an especially egregious error of logic, as I supposed above that it was.

[Alphus and Omegus]

Reformed Egyptian is still a "tell" given what we know that Smith thought of actual Egyptian being logographic. But it's not ironclad since a believer could just say that maybe the Nephites had indeed made the writing more compact through some unknown script. That's implausible but not falsifiable.

[Dr Exiled]

I don't think PG was saying this is the end all. It's a piece in the evidential pie. At least that's how I take it. Given that there isn't any good evidence that the Nephites existed and the DNA from the Native Americans doesn't tie to Israelites of 600 BC .... Joseph Smith having his character talk about reformed egyptian is more evidence of 19th century origin.