Manetho, Josephus, and the Book of Abraham

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
Post Reply
drumdude
God
Posts: 7253
Joined: Thu Oct 29, 2020 5:29 am

Re: Manetho, Josephus, and the Book of Abraham

Post by drumdude »

Kishkumen wrote:
Mon Jul 31, 2023 9:47 pm
I expect you’ll soon be receiving another nastygram from a certain retired BYU professor for comparing Mormon believers to QAnon believers.
That’s not my intention. All I am saying is that we ought to be open to the possibility that thought processes of others may be quite different from our own.
In the Mormon worldview, though, everyone should be able to see it the Mormon way. The only reason they wouldn’t believe is because of their own personal sin, pride, or some other personal shortcoming.

For all the talk of magnanimity, Mormons really believe that ex-Mormons have lost their eternal reward through their own sins. It’s not simply a matter of seeing things differently, it’s a personal character flaw.

How can a Mormon agree to be open to that possibility, without the implication that sin is involved?
hauslern
Area Authority
Posts: 630
Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2020 2:36 am

Re: Manetho, Josephus, and the Book of Abraham

Post by hauslern »

So Smith had access to the writings of Josephus. Is there anything in the Book of Abraham that Smith not have prior access to? So restore Anubis ear, the head on the standing figure in facsimile 1 and register 3 what it should be.
User avatar
Kishkumen
God
Posts: 9322
Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2020 2:37 pm
Location: Cassius University
Contact:

Re: Manetho, Josephus, and the Book of Abraham

Post by Kishkumen »

Most interesting!
We need to get you on my show and talk through stuff like this, I can see it being quite valuable for ALL of us
That would be really awesome! Did you get my email?
"He disturbs the laws of his country, he forces himself upon women, and he puts men to death without trial.” ~Otanes on the monarch, Herodotus Histories 3.80.
User avatar
Physics Guy
God
Posts: 1985
Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2020 7:40 am
Location: on the battlefield of life

Re: Manetho, Josephus, and the Book of Abraham

Post by Physics Guy »

Kishkumen wrote:
Mon Jul 31, 2023 3:09 pm
Did the Egyptians call their first man or god Hephaestus 5000 years before Manetho wrote his history? No. Undoubtedly not, but this was the story Manetho wanted to tell about Egypt's past in the early Ptolemaic period.

...

This undoubtedly did not happen, but it suited Josephus as a proud Jew to tell his people's story in a way that flattered them.

...

None of this stuff happened. ... They are true to the extent that they seek to communicate something of great value to and about the time, place, and culture that they come out. (emphasis added)
This confused me. Quotes from Manetho and Josephus seemed to show that ancient writers sometimes wrote things that weren't true, because they wanted to write those things for purposes other than recounting historical fact. Okay, that seems clear. People have no doubt been telling inaccurate stories for all kinds of reasons since the first mastodon got away.

But then somehow at the end we are counting a statement as true as long as it is trying to communicate something of value. This seems like too far a stretch. If I make a social media post endorsing a conspiracy theory does my post count as true just because I'm trying to convey something of value to and about my fellow conspiracy freaks?

I can see that we may be able to identify some amount of truth in or behind a text that also holds falsehoods. I can even buy that we might legitimately discard some amount of false chaff by classifying it as linguistic convention rather than content. A text in French makes practically everything male or female grammatically, and we don't count all those genders as biological errors. In kind of the same way, ancient writers and their audiences might have shared background assumptions that we now consider false, but we may decide not to count those ancient cultural conventions as part of the content of an ancient text. So we might for example judge an ancient geography as substantially accurate even if it was all written in terms of a flat-earth cosmology which the author and original readers took literally.

And I can see how it could be tempting to boldly slap the "true" label onto texts that too many people dismiss as completely worthless, or even harmful, just because they aren't literally accurate. I just don't think that conferring the "true" badge is the right way to rehabilitate these sidelined texts. If a soldier runs away in a battle we can find extenuating circumstances, and we can praise his civilian achievements, but we shouldn't give him a medal for bravery. That's serving the seed corn as a side dish.
I was a teenager before it was cool.
User avatar
Kishkumen
God
Posts: 9322
Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2020 2:37 pm
Location: Cassius University
Contact:

Re: Manetho, Josephus, and the Book of Abraham

Post by Kishkumen »

This confused me. Quotes from Manetho and Josephus seemed to show that ancient writers sometimes wrote things that weren't true, because they wanted to write those things for purposes other than recounting historical fact. Okay, that seems clear. People have no doubt been telling inaccurate stories for all kinds of reasons since the first mastodon got away.

But then somehow at the end we are counting a statement as true as long as it is trying to communicate something of value. This seems like too far a stretch. If I make a social media post endorsing a conspiracy theory does my post count as true just because I'm trying to convey something of value to and about my fellow conspiracy freaks?

I can see that we may be able to identify some amount of truth in or behind a text that also holds falsehoods. I can even buy that we might legitimately discard some amount of false chaff by classifying it as linguistic convention rather than content. A text in French makes practically everything male or female grammatically, and we don't count all those genders as biological errors. In kind of the same way, ancient writers and their audiences might have shared background assumptions that we now consider false, but we may decide not to count those ancient cultural conventions as part of the content of an ancient text. So we might for example judge an ancient geography as substantially accurate even if it was all written in terms of a flat-earth cosmology which the author and original readers took literally.

And I can see how it could be tempting to boldly slap the "true" label onto texts that too many people dismiss as completely worthless, or even harmful, just because they aren't literally accurate. I just don't think that conferring the "true" badge is the right way to rehabilitate these sidelined texts. If a soldier runs away in a battle we can find extenuating circumstances, and we can praise his civilian achievements, but we shouldn't give him a medal for bravery. That's serving the seed corn as a side dish.
Thanks for another thought-provoking post, PG. I get something out of practically every post you write. This holds true in this case. True is kind of a slippery term. I have to study it a lot more. Factual is but one possible meaning. Faithful might be another useful one for the present context.

History in antiquity was not primarily, not to mention exclusively, about discovering the facts. It is a rhetorical exercise. Someone uses data of various kinds and rhetorical tropes to convince you of their point of view. That’s history. The texts in the Bible and LDS scripture have different generic and rhetorical aims than history. It is difficult to
say anything that applies well to all three of these snippets, but I tried.

For a culture’s sacred text, I would say true probably means useful in the community’s quest to negotiate meaning, identity, and a way of life. Deemed faithful and authoritative to the community’s sense of itself. Factual? I don’t see how.
Last edited by Kishkumen on Tue Aug 01, 2023 6:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"He disturbs the laws of his country, he forces himself upon women, and he puts men to death without trial.” ~Otanes on the monarch, Herodotus Histories 3.80.
huckelberry
God
Posts: 3453
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:48 pm

Re: Manetho, Josephus, and the Book of Abraham

Post by huckelberry »

I think it reasonably clear that there is fiction which tells the truth and fiction which tells black lies. There would also be fiction between these poles or not strongly either. Just because something is fiction does not mean we are not responsible to make judgements about its truth. I think we must make such judgements.

Of course there is writing(speech and film) which combines both facts and fiction. I think such might be found in any age. We are responsible to make assessments as to both truth and facts.

An example which means something to me. Hemingway , Big Two Hearted River. This short story might contains some facts about a real river or might not. It does contain some truth about both fishing and the experience of being human.

Kishkumen, your comment about truth for scriptures is thoughtful but leaves me with an unresolved feeling.That would be like my feelings about the Old Testament history. I can see it put together from lots of pieces of remembered stuff but recreated to focus on identity and hope for people in the Babylonian captivity. The fiction of conquest may serve a purpose but contains a problem, it is a false solution I think or perhaps a common inadequate one .
User avatar
Kishkumen
God
Posts: 9322
Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2020 2:37 pm
Location: Cassius University
Contact:

Re: Manetho, Josephus, and the Book of Abraham

Post by Kishkumen »

huckelberry wrote:
Tue Aug 01, 2023 5:44 pm
Kishkumen, your comment about truth for scriptures is thoughtful but leaves me with an unresolved feeling.That would be like my feelings about the Old Testament history. I can see it put together from lots of pieces of remembered stuff but recreated to focus on identity and hope for people in the Babylonian captivity. The fiction of conquest may serve a purpose but contains a problem, it is a false solution I think or perhaps a common inadequate one .
Scripture is a made-up category. The status of the Bible as the word of God evolved and continues to evolve. In the Ancient Mediterranean World, for example, various texts were treated as divinely inspired or oracular. The idea of the canon developed in Christianity perhaps in reaction to the texts the "heretic" Marcion selected. By Late Antiquity, some Platonists were arguing that everything in Homer was divinely inspired and capable of conveying all divine wisdom, if one knew how to interpret it.

What does scripture mean today? Are all important textual landmarks of world cultures properly called scripture? What kind of truth do the most important writings of the Abrahamic faiths need to have? Do they contain all truth, all knowledge, all fact? If so, in what sense? Is it the case that all we need is the Bible to know the important history of the world as it actually unfolded? Or is the word of God more oracular in nature, requiring the talent and/or inspiration of the interpreter to tease out all of the hidden truths?

With the range of possibilities for what constitutes a divinely inspired and authoritative text, the complaints people have about the Book of Abraham seem pretty narrow minded to me. Oh, sure, I think it is perfectly fine for anyone to reject any text as divinely inspired for themselves, but to hold forth as if their personal standard invalidates the faith of others is, well, kinda dumb. Invalidates for the speaker and those of like mind, perhaps.
"He disturbs the laws of his country, he forces himself upon women, and he puts men to death without trial.” ~Otanes on the monarch, Herodotus Histories 3.80.
huckelberry
God
Posts: 3453
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:48 pm

Re: Manetho, Josephus, and the Book of Abraham

Post by huckelberry »

Kishkumen, I think Shulem and yourself are asking different questions of the text. He is also deep into a literal analysis which is a real approach but not the one you are favoring. I think Shulem is deeply involved emotionally in questioning and rejecting strong authority claims by the church based on Joseph Smiths authority.

You and he are surely not going to agree.
hauslern wrote:
Tue Jul 25, 2023 7:30 pm
On the MAd board T-shirt

"The papyri may or may not have contained Abraham's writings, but it is the message contained in the translation that matter. If it were possible to determine, definitively, that none of the Joseph Smith papyri contained anything whatsoever having to do with Abraham, it wouldn't change anything for the Church or the Book of Abraham, we still have a translation, even if it didn't come from the papyri.

Now you have me confused.
I think this point of view is possible for some people. I doubt water board, thumbscrews and a cat of nine tails would convince Shulem to accept it.

It is possible for a person to accept the Book of Abraham as inspired even thinking it came from neither the papyri or Abraham.
Last edited by huckelberry on Tue Aug 01, 2023 9:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Res Ipsa
God
Posts: 10636
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2020 6:44 pm
Location: Playing Rabbits

Re: Manetho, Josephus, and the Book of Abraham

Post by Res Ipsa »

Kishkumen wrote:
Tue Aug 01, 2023 6:41 pm
huckelberry wrote:
Tue Aug 01, 2023 5:44 pm
Kishkumen, your comment about truth for scriptures is thoughtful but leaves me with an unresolved feeling.That would be like my feelings about the Old Testament history. I can see it put together from lots of pieces of remembered stuff but recreated to focus on identity and hope for people in the Babylonian captivity. The fiction of conquest may serve a purpose but contains a problem, it is a false solution I think or perhaps a common inadequate one .
Scripture is a made-up category. The status of the Bible as the word of God evolved and continues to evolve. In the Ancient Mediterranean World, for example, various texts were treated as divinely inspired or oracular. The idea of the canon developed in Christianity perhaps in reaction to the texts the "heretic" Marcion selected. By Late Antiquity, some Platonists were arguing that everything in Homer was divinely inspired and capable of conveying all divine wisdom, if one knew how to interpret it.

What does scripture mean today? Are all important textual landmarks of world cultures properly called scripture? What kind of truth do the most important writings of the Abrahamic faiths need to have? Do they contain all truth, all knowledge, all fact? If so, in what sense? Is it the case that all we need is the Bible to know the important history of the world as it actually unfolded? Or is the word of God more oracular in nature, requiring the talent and/or inspiration of the interpreter to tease out all of the hidden truths?

With the range of possibilities for what constitutes a divinely inspired and authoritative text, the complaints people have about the Book of Abraham seem pretty narrow minded to me. Oh, sure, I think it is perfectly fine for anyone to reject any text as divinely inspired for themselves, but to hold forth as if their personal standard invalidates the faith of others is, well, kinda dumb. Invalidates for the speaker and those of like mind, perhaps.
You had me at "made up category." :mrgreen:
he/him
we all just have to live through it,
holding each other’s hands.


— Alison Luterman
hauslern
Area Authority
Posts: 630
Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2020 2:36 am

Re: Manetho, Josephus, and the Book of Abraham

Post by hauslern »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GS3BZs5fx3Q

Looking for a black cat that is not there.

"the only difference is that you think you have found it"
Post Reply