Jesus is a Roman god

[honorentheos]

I seem to recall Robert Eisenman arguing that Paul played a key role in the process of creating a less militant form of Judaism in order to ease the Palestinian problem. The aspects of Jesus we find most desirable and admirable in part being elevated by Roman authorities combating religious extremism and unrest. Kinda gives one pause, huh?

[Res Ipsa]

Bravo, Reverend. I has always wondered why the Roman Pantheon included the Greek gods. Knowing that the Romans incorporated other societies’ Gods is a big chunk of context I’ve been missing.

Gonna have to read this a few more times.

[Jersey Girl]

Explain that please.

Yes, he never claimed to be God or a god.

Got it. So in your opinion are there any places in scripture where he's reported as claiming he's God without actually saying "I am God?"

[Everybody Wang Chung]

Yes, he never claimed to be God or a god.

Got it. So in your opinion are there any places in scripture where he's reported as claiming he's God without actually saying "I am God?"

Daniel McClellan agrees with Kish. Jesus never once claimed to be God:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bA3a4xwCGA

[Philo Sofee]

This is actually the direction that mainstream scholarship on the biblical Jesus have gotten to. In all the places, (If I remember correctly) that it is said he said he was God, there is either a manuscript difficulty, or a textual one. It is always others who made that claim for him. Another interesting angle on this issue is others claimed he was God, but that was their interpretation. They assumed that Messiah was going to be God. That isn't the Judaic view however. I remember when I first came across this I was mildly surprised actually. But so far, not that I have studied it exhaustively, I have found that to be the case. The Messiah and God were not equivalent. The Messiah was not supernatural.

Edited to add:
Here is what ChatGPT says:

"The question of whether Jesus claimed to be God is a topic that has been debated among theologians, scholars, and believers for centuries. The answer largely depends on how one interprets the teachings and events described in the New Testament of the Bible.

There are passages in the New Testament where Jesus makes statements that some interpret as claims to divinity. For example:

"I and the Father are one." (John 10:30) This statement is often cited as evidence of Jesus' claim to be divine, as it implies a unique and intimate relationship with God.

"Before Abraham was, I am." (John 8:58) In this statement, Jesus uses the phrase "I am," which is reminiscent of the way God identifies Himself in the Old Testament (Exodus 3:14).

"Whoever has seen me has seen the Father." (John 14:9) This implies a profound unity between Jesus and God.

Acceptance of worship. There are instances in the New Testament where Jesus accepts worship (e.g., Matthew 14:33, Matthew 28:9, John 9:35-38), which is traditionally reserved for God alone.

Forgiving sins. Jesus forgave sins in a way that some interpreted as a divine prerogative (Mark 2:5-7).

These passages, among others, have led many Christians to believe that Jesus did indeed claim to be divine. However, it's important to note that there are also passages where Jesus refers to God as a separate entity (e.g., "the Father"), which has led some to interpret his statements in a more metaphorical or symbolic sense.

Some argue that the titles and claims of divinity attributed to Jesus were added or evolved over time, especially as the early Christian community grappled with how to understand and articulate the nature of Jesus.

In summary, whether Jesus explicitly claimed to be God or whether this is an interpretation of his words and actions is a matter of theological interpretation, and opinions on this issue vary among different religious traditions and denominations."

And here is the theme in Judaism:

Judaism traditionally does not believe that the Messiah will be God or divine. Instead, the Jewish concept of the Messiah is that of a human being, a descendent of King David, who will be anointed with a special mission to lead the Jewish people to an era of peace, righteousness, and spiritual fulfillment.

The role of the Messiah in Jewish belief includes:

Rebuilding the Temple: One of the anticipated tasks of the Messiah is to rebuild the Third Temple in Jerusalem.

Gathering of the Exiles: The Messiah is expected to gather the Jewish exiles and bring them back to the Land of Israel.

Establishing World Peace: The Messiah is envisioned as a leader who will bring about a time of universal peace and harmony.

Teaching Torah: The Messiah is expected to be a wise and righteous teacher who will guide the Jewish people in living according to the Torah.

Defeating Israel's Enemies: The Messiah is sometimes associated with the idea of defeating Israel's enemies and bringing about a time of security for the Jewish people.

Resurrection of the Dead: Some Jewish traditions believe that the coming of the Messiah will be accompanied by a resurrection of the dead.

Importantly, the concept of the Messiah has evolved and been interpreted in various ways throughout Jewish history. Different Jewish movements and sects have different perspectives on the nature and role of the Messiah. While many traditional Jews hold to the belief in a future human Messiah, others interpret the concept more metaphorically or do not emphasize the coming of a specific individual.

It's worth noting that the idea of a divine Messiah is more commonly associated with Christian theology, where Jesus Christ is considered both the Messiah and the incarnation of God. This belief is not part of traditional Jewish understanding.

[Moksha]

How does all of this relate to Joseph Smith being the fourth member of the God head?

[msnobody]

“To get back to earliest Christianity is to accept it as it is.”

So, how was it (earliest Christianity)?

[Jersey Girl]

Edited to add:
Here is what ChatGPT says:

And here is the theme in Judaism:

Judaism traditionally does not believe that the Messiah will be God or divine. Instead, the Jewish concept of the Messiah is that of a human being, a descendent of King David, who will be anointed with a special mission to lead the Jewish people to an era of peace, righteousness, and spiritual fulfillment.

The role of the Messiah in Jewish belief includes:

Rebuilding the Temple: One of the anticipated tasks of the Messiah is to rebuild the Third Temple in Jerusalem.

Gathering of the Exiles: The Messiah is expected to gather the Jewish exiles and bring them back to the Land of Israel.

Establishing World Peace: The Messiah is envisioned as a leader who will bring about a time of universal peace and harmony.

Teaching Torah: The Messiah is expected to be a wise and righteous teacher who will guide the Jewish people in living according to the Torah.

Defeating Israel's Enemies: The Messiah is sometimes associated with the idea of defeating Israel's enemies and bringing about a time of security for the Jewish people.

Resurrection of the Dead: Some Jewish traditions believe that the coming of the Messiah will be accompanied by a resurrection of the dead.

Importantly, the concept of the Messiah has evolved and been interpreted in various ways throughout Jewish history. Different Jewish movements and sects have different perspectives on the nature and role of the Messiah. While many traditional Jews hold to the belief in a future human Messiah, others interpret the concept more metaphorically or do not emphasize the coming of a specific individual.

Christians believe all of the above as well, Kerr. Though I wouldn't say the Teaching Torah part in the way that it's described but I think if I took a stab at it, I could get pretty close.

In any case, I think the examples that you use aren't actually comparable themes in the sense that the first part (Christianity) is simply discussing claims of Jesus/Yeshua as supernatural or God, where the other reads more like a resume' for Messiah, his lineage (which matches the lineage of Yeshua in Matthew 1 though there are competing theories of course) and various events we believe will take place at the coming of Messiah. I see those as two different thematic topics.

Wasn't there a prophecy in the Tanakh that Messiah would be born before the destruction of the Second Temple? I'll have to look that up as I have time over here to check that.

ETA: Looked it up right quick. It's in Daniel.

[Physics Guy]

An interesting theme. It sounds shocking at first, but how unorthodox it really is depends on how far it goes, I think. Up to a point, any religion that flourished in the Roman Empire is going to look like a Roman religion in some ways, just because the old pagan traditions were the cultural water in which everyone swam. Like, I figure that if I were starting a new religion in Rome at the time, and I wanted to say how different my religion was from the cult of Jupiter, my first thought would probably just be to make a big point of how our bulls were being sacrificed to a totally different god. I'm not sure it would occur to me to leave out animal sacrifice completely in favour of meditation or something. I reckon this imaginative inertia would tend to give my new religion a certain Roman look and feel even if it were different from the real Roman cults in radical ways.

Maybe the thesis does go farther than that. I'm suspicious of point 7, however.

7. At the same time, Christianity does hold onto Judaism’s religious exclusivity and rejection of other religions and gods. This results in the Roman god Jesus ejecting all of the other gods from the Roman pantheon, leaving Jesus as the only Roman god.

Isn't this really more than a detail? Exclusive monotheism was and is the central point of Judaism, and non-exclusive plurality of small-g gods is a defining feature of Greco-Roman paganism, I would have said. So can you really just note this in the seventh point of a long list and sweep past it? Isn't that kind of like saying, "The Moon is an orange!" and then acknowledging in point 7 that it is a really huge orange out in space that orbits the Earth every month?

I'm also a little concerned about point 8.

8. Roman and Greek thinkers wrote anti-Christian polemics along the way, and we read these polemics as reinforcing the view that Jesus was irreconcilable with Greek and Roman religions, but the truth is that polemics were necessary to emphasize the differences precisely because there was nothing about Jesus that could logically keep him out of the pantheon. The religious spirit of the Mediterranean was inclusive and never tried or succeeded at keeping out gods who struck up a big following.

Here you seem literally to be interpreting contemporary pagan writers to mean the exact opposite of what they emphatically said. And okay, I get that there is actually some reason to do that. If somebody bothered to assert something, that implies that it was in doubt at the time. I'm not sure how far we can always stretch this, however. If an ancient wrote that the sky was blue, I wouldn't infer that it must in fact have been green. There obviously are tons of differences between Christianity and classical paganism, and maybe they're all just the same kind of differences of detail that existed between pagan cults, but maybe the concerned writers at the time weren't just being obtuse or polemical. Maybe some of those differences were bigger than details and contemporary observers noticed.

[Dr. Shades]

Edited to add:
Here is what ChatGPT says:

Hold the phone. . . ChatGPT is considered a go-to authority now??

If so, I think humanity has officially gone over the edge.