If plates then God

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Nevo
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Re: If plates then God

Post by Nevo »

Marcus wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2023 11:00 pm
I can only speak for myself, but I'm not going to bother to take any part of your gish gallop seriously unless you actually attach the sources for each part you quoted.
Here you go, Marcus. Hope this helps.

"a unified, coherent, history-like narrative of nearly 270,000 words and almost 200 named characters interacting with one another in complicated plot lines"
Source: Grant Hardy, “General Essays: The Origins of the Text,” in The Annotated Book of Mormon, ed. Grant Hardy (New York: Oxford University Press, 2023), 749.

“that covers a thousand years of history”
Source: Nevo

and includes "a diverse array of genres (history, sermons, prophecy, scriptural exegesis, poetry, allegory, letters, etc.), multiple levels of narration (with later narrators editing and commenting on previous accounts), and literary techniques such as flashbacks, embedded documents, and parallel narratives,"
Source: Grant Hardy, “General Essays: Reading the Book of Mormon as Ancient History,” in The Annotated Book of Mormon, ed. Grant Hardy (New York: Oxford University Press, 2023), 807.

while also keeping track of "genealogical relationships, the sources of various plates and records, and successions of rulers,"
Source: Grant Hardy, “General Essays: Reading the Book of Mormon as Ancient History,” in The Annotated Book of Mormon, ed. Grant Hardy (New York: Oxford University Press, 2023), 807.

and exhibiting intertextuality and internal allusions and playing with temporality,
Source: On intertextuality and internal allusions, see Grant Hardy, “General Essays: The Book of Mormon as Literature,” in The Annotated Book of Mormon, ed. Grant Hardy (New York: Oxford University Press, 2023), 798. On playing with temporality, see Elizabeth Fenton, “Nephites and Israelites: The Book of Mormon and the Hebraic Indian Theory,” in Americanist Approaches to the Book of Mormon, ed. Elizabeth Fenton and Jared Hickman (New York: Oxford University Press, 2019), 298-320.

and addressing not only the question of Indian origins and the state of contemporary Christianity, but also "God's covenants with Israel, the nature of salvation, prophecy, scripture, faith, eschatology, human agency, and divine justice and mercy,"
Source: Grant Hardy, “General Essays: The Origins of the Text,” in The Annotated Book of Mormon, ed. Grant Hardy (New York: Oxford University Press, 2023), 750.

while also presenting, in sermons and stories, "a coherent spiritual vision that draws from biblical precedents, resolves ambiguities, and both explains and applies doctrines in ways that were intelligible to nineteenth-century readers,"
Source: Grant Hardy, “General Essays: Book of Mormon Theology,” in The Annotated Book of Mormon, ed. Grant Hardy (New York: Oxford University Press, 2023), 766.

that would also resonate with millions of future readers around the world,
Source: See Grant Hardy, “General Essays: Reading the Book of Mormon as Fiction,” in The Annotated Book of Mormon, ed. Grant Hardy (New York: Oxford University Press, 2023), 811.

and that future historians would hail as "one of the greatest documents in American cultural history"
Source: Gordon S. Wood, “Evangelical America and Early Mormonism,” New York History 61, no. 4 (1980): 380-81.

and "among the great achievements of American literature"
Source: Daniel Walker Howe, What Hath God Wrought: The Transformation of America, 1815-1848 (New York: Oxford University Press, 2007), 314.
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Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: If plates then God

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

Nice sourcing! Thanks for taking the time to do that.

- Doc
Hugh Nibley claimed he bumped into Adolf Hitler, Albert Einstein, Winston Churchill, Gertrude Stein, and the Grand Duke Vladimir Romanoff. Dishonesty is baked into Mormonism.
Marcus
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Re: If plates then God

Post by Marcus »

Nevo wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2023 1:03 am
Marcus wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2023 11:00 pm
I can only speak for myself, but I'm not going to bother to take any part of your gish gallop seriously unless you actually attach the sources for each part you quoted.
Here you go, Marcus. Hope this helps.

"a unified, coherent, history-like narrative of nearly 270,000 words and almost 200 named characters interacting with one another in complicated plot lines"
Source: Grant Hardy, “General Essays: The Origins of the Text,” in The Annotated Book of Mormon, ed. Grant Hardy (New York: Oxford University Press, 2023), 749.

“that covers a thousand years of history”
Source: Nevo

and includes "a diverse array of genres (history, sermons, prophecy, scriptural exegesis, poetry, allegory, letters, etc.), multiple levels of narration (with later narrators editing and commenting on previous accounts), and literary techniques such as flashbacks, embedded documents, and parallel narratives,"
Source: Grant Hardy, “General Essays: Reading the Book of Mormon as Ancient History,” in The Annotated Book of Mormon, ed. Grant Hardy (New York: Oxford University Press, 2023), 807.

while also keeping track of "genealogical relationships, the sources of various plates and records, and successions of rulers,"
Source: Grant Hardy, “General Essays: Reading the Book of Mormon as Ancient History,” in The Annotated Book of Mormon, ed. Grant Hardy (New York: Oxford University Press, 2023), 807.

and exhibiting intertextuality and internal allusions and playing with temporality,
Source: On intertextuality and internal allusions, see Grant Hardy, “General Essays: The Book of Mormon as Literature,” in The Annotated Book of Mormon, ed. Grant Hardy (New York: Oxford University Press, 2023), 798. On playing with temporality, see Elizabeth Fenton, “Nephites and Israelites: The Book of Mormon and the Hebraic Indian Theory,” in Americanist Approaches to the Book of Mormon, ed. Elizabeth Fenton and Jared Hickman (New York: Oxford University Press, 2019), 298-320.

and addressing not only the question of Indian origins and the state of contemporary Christianity, but also "God's covenants with Israel, the nature of salvation, prophecy, scripture, faith, eschatology, human agency, and divine justice and mercy,"
Source: Grant Hardy, “General Essays: The Origins of the Text,” in The Annotated Book of Mormon, ed. Grant Hardy (New York: Oxford University Press, 2023), 750.

while also presenting, in sermons and stories, "a coherent spiritual vision that draws from biblical precedents, resolves ambiguities, and both explains and applies doctrines in ways that were intelligible to nineteenth-century readers,"
Source: Grant Hardy, “General Essays: Book of Mormon Theology,” in The Annotated Book of Mormon, ed. Grant Hardy (New York: Oxford University Press, 2023), 766.

that would also resonate with millions of future readers around the world,
Source: See Grant Hardy, “General Essays: Reading the Book of Mormon as Fiction,” in The Annotated Book of Mormon, ed. Grant Hardy (New York: Oxford University Press, 2023), 811.

and that future historians would hail as "one of the greatest documents in American cultural history"
Source: Gordon S. Wood, “Evangelical America and Early Mormonism,” New York History 61, no. 4 (1980): 380-81.

and "among the great achievements of American literature"
Source: Daniel Walker Howe, What Hath God Wrought: The Transformation of America, 1815-1848 (New York: Oxford University Press, 2007), 314.
Wow. You really did just cobble together a bunch of disparate things. And you "hope it helps"? I thought at least from Morley's comment that you were quoting a cohesive statement, but you have just shoveled together a bunch of stuff. I enjoy Grant Hardy's work, but, no, this mishmash of stuff is not convincing.

Thanks for the links, but you need to go back to the beginning and try again to respond to PG's comment in a coherent way.
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Kishkumen
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Re: If plates then God

Post by Kishkumen »

Nevo wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2023 12:08 am
Okay, but I don't think that diminishes the achievement.
I agree that the Book of Mormon is a significant achievement, and, as far as I am concerned, that should be enough. Call it a miracle for being amazing as it is. Don’t expect anyone to change their view of ancient American history based on Joseph’s composition, divinely inspired though it may be.
When it comes to the Book of Mormon, I think we're dealing with unlikelihoods all around. The supernatural explanation of the stone in the hat is unlikely, but no more unlikely than a crucified man being raised from dead.

An indigent day laborer was unlikely to have composed it, but so was a village schoolteacher, in my opinion. Given Joseph's subsequent career and revelations, I'm inclined to think he was the author. But if so, it was an astounding feat. Certainly more difficult than a decent day's labor.
I think the Book of Mormon coming from a rock in a hat is more likely than Jesus rising from the dead. None of that bothers me, however. One has faith for spiritual reasons. What I object to is the expectation that people literally believe in obviously mythological narratives.
"Great power connected with ambition, luxury and flattery, will as readily produce a Caesar, Caligula, Nero and Domitian in America, as the same causes did in the Roman Empire." ~Cato, New York Journal
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Doctor Scratch
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Re: If plates then God

Post by Doctor Scratch »

I admit that I find the “Book of Mormon is a great achievement” argument baffling. The faithful position is that it was written by multiple authors over many hundreds of year, right? And then it was assembled together as the gold plates, which Smith translated in sixty-odd days? So is the idea that it’s a “great achievement” because multiple authors chipped in over time to write it? Like, it’s a really solid collection? Of course not, and hence my bafflement. The “it’s impressive” argument only makes sense if the Mormon narrative is false and Smith himself is the author.
"If, while hoping that everybody else will be honest and so forth, I can personally prosper through unethical and immoral acts without being detected and without risk, why should I not?." --Daniel Peterson, 6/4/14
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Morley
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Re: If plates then God

Post by Morley »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2023 12:19 am
Morley wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2023 6:32 am
No. And no. Both obviously so.
Would you care to lay out your detailed reasonings as to how Joseph wrote the Book of Mormon? Taking into account the things that have been discussed in this thread.

Regards,
MG
Ha! Sorry, but I don't think so. Why would I take the time or make the effort to drop my pennies down your well? It's typical for you to not reply, and when you do respond, it's usually not in an effort to engage, but to either misrepresent or misdirect. Thank you, but I'll take my coins and spend them elsewhere.
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Morley
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Re: If plates then God

Post by Morley »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2023 1:14 am
Nice sourcing! Thanks for taking the time to do that.

- Doc
Agreed. Thanks, Nevo.
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Morley
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Re: If plates then God

Post by Morley »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2023 11:41 pm
Gadianton wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2023 10:09 pm
No it wasn't, you keep changing your god-damned point to the next iteration of what maybe you should have said the last time, based on how you just got your ass kicked this time.

This sentence does show, however, that your main interest is epistemology.
Only in the sense of being interested in ways that one can come to knowledge. Obviously I’m not in the same class as you when discussing epistemology or philosophy. But I don’t need to be. Without using highfalutin processes, step by step by step, I can…using good old reason and common sense…find ‘treasures of knowledge’. Those forms of knowledge and may I dare say, truth, are accessible by the common ordinary man and woman.

I can read, I can discern, I can see that which has no real value…to me and those that I love. It is those things that I seek after. To you, that may sound like the ramblings of a yokel. So be it.

One thing that became rather obvious rather quickly as I took some time to read about epistemology was that, as I said, essentially it’s a dead end street. The scriptures are crystal clear that reason and logic play a part in the path to God but not the end all way of getting on and staying on that path.

I’ve found that there are times when I have to trust God that He has knowledge and truth that He will impart in His own way and in his own time. Those times have occurred over the span of my life thus far when I’ve stayed on the covenant path.

To you, that may sound strange at this point in your life having exited that path and made the choice to use your own knowledge, tools, and intellectual pursuits to create your own life of purpose and reason at the expense of having opportunities to have the Spirit teach you in your mind AND your heart.
I'm not sure you're helping your argument, MG. You may want to rework the part that I bolded, above.
MG 2.0
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Re: If plates then God

Post by MG 2.0 »

Morley wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2023 4:14 am
MG 2.0 wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2023 12:19 am
Would you care to lay out your detailed reasonings as to how Joseph wrote the Book of Mormon? Taking into account the things that have been discussed in this thread.

Regards,
MG
Ha! Sorry, but I don't think so. Why would I take the time or make the effort to drop my pennies down your well? It's typical for you to not reply, and when you do respond, it's usually not in an effort to engage, but to either misrepresent or misdirect. Thank you, but I'll take my coins and spend them elsewhere.
So be it.

Regards,
MG
MG 2.0
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Re: If plates then God

Post by MG 2.0 »

Morley wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2023 4:36 am
MG 2.0 wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2023 11:41 pm
Only in the sense of being interested in ways that one can come to knowledge. Obviously I’m not in the same class as you when discussing epistemology or philosophy. But I don’t need to be. Without using highfalutin processes, step by step by step, I can…using good old reason and common sense…find ‘treasures of knowledge’. Those forms of knowledge and may I dare say, truth, are accessible by the common ordinary man and woman.

I can read, I can discern, I can see that which has real value…to me and those that I love. It is those things that I seek after. To you, that may sound like the ramblings of a yokel. So be it.

One thing that became rather obvious rather quickly as I took some time to read about epistemology was that, as I said, essentially it’s a dead end street. The scriptures are crystal clear that reason and logic play a part in the path to God but not the end all way of getting on and staying on that path.

I’ve found that there are times when I have to trust God that He has knowledge and truth that He will impart in His own way and in his own time. Those times have occurred over the span of my life thus far when I’ve stayed on the covenant path.

To you, that may sound strange at this point in your life having exited that path and made the choice to use your own knowledge, tools, and intellectual pursuits to create your own life of purpose and reason at the expense of having opportunities to have the Spirit teach you in your mind AND your heart.
I'm not sure you're helping your argument, MG. You may want to rework the part that I bolded, above.
Ha! Thanks.🙂

Regards,
MG
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