Daniel dodges a dilemma by substituting his own

[Dr. Shades]

Since I regard the Bible--including the pseudepigraphal works--as Scripture, it stands to reason that God is willing to work through pious frauds.

David Koresh was a pious fraud. So was Marshall Applewhite. Even Jim Jones was a pious fraud. L. Ron Hubbard was a pious fraud as well. Did God work through them, too? If not, why not?

[tagriffy]

That is a good question. Obviously there are limits to where the pious fruad line can be taken. At this point, I have no hard and fast answer on where the line should be drawn.

[Dr. Shades]

I certainly do. Fraud = false. What’s the point of thinking otherwise?

[tagriffy]

Humanity. We are messy, complicated creatures.

[Dr. Shades]

Humanity. We are messy, complicated creatures.

Is God a messy, complicated creature?

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

Humanity. We are messy, complicated creatures.

Is God a messy, complicated creature?

I’ll hand Tim an answer on a silver platter for him:

God is a being with infinite complexity - a higher dimensional being as it were. When we interact with a higher dimensional being, God in this instance, understanding is often ‘lost in translation’ and things get messy. Some prophets are better at tuning into God’s ‘vibration’ or ‘frequency’, so to speak, just as some of us are better attuned to the divine than others. This all a delicate dance where God attempts communication so as not to disrupt our free agency too much, because the key to enlightenment is free agency.

- Doc

[Dr. Shades]

So, when Satan had 100% knowledge of God in the pre-existence, he no longer had any free agency to rebel?

[Gadianton]

So, when Satan had 100% knowledge of God in the pre-existence, he no longer had any free agency to rebel?

Keep that one in your back pocket for MG 3.0

[Physics Guy]

The idea that prophets in general look pretty narcissistic, and resemble entrepreneurs that way, invites the further generalisation that anyone who steps up as a leader, and tries to persuade others to follow them at some risk, is behaving in a way that narcissists tend to behave.

And that's a fair point.

Leaders ask for investment from others, from the minimal investment of listening time up to staking one's chance to survive a disaster on the hope that the self-proclaimed leader really knows the right thing to do. Whatever the scale, asking for investment takes chutzpah. It could be the sheer nerve of a brazen criminal. It could be the deluded confidence of an idiot or a lunatic. Or it could be the warranted confidence of someone who really knows something.

Getting investment from other people is a way to get ahead, yourself. Moreover, because of the basic fact that many people all giving you something will get you more than you could get for yourself, getting investment from others pushes buttons in our brains to make us feel good. The buttons are there because they reinforce evolutionarily useful behaviour. Narcissism is probably a survival trait. People who crave attention and admiration from others are craving something that really is practically useful—for them—because attention and admiration are a form of investment, and they tend to lead to other forms of investment.

At the same time it's true that leadership can be wonderful. If one person knows the right thing to do to survive the disaster, and everyone else is able to listen to them and do what they say, then everyone will survive. It scales well. One right idea of what to do can save an unlimited number of people, if they will do what the leader who really knows tells them to do. So the human instinct for following confident leaders is also evolutionarily effective.

And if you said jump in the river I would,
because it would probably be a good idea.

How do you tell the leader who really knows the good thing to do from the idiot wannabe narcissist who doesn't really know anything but just wants a lot of other people's investment? That's the zillion-dollar question, all the time. You buy in, and hope it's not Marshall Applewhite. Or you don't, and hope it isn't Steve Jobs.

[tagriffy]

Humanity. We are messy, complicated creatures.

Is God a messy, complicated creature?

I like Doctor CamNC4Me's answer, except I don't necessarily think God's communication would disrupt our free agency.