Mormon Worldview

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Physics Guy
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Re: Mormon Worldview

Post by Physics Guy »

pgm1985 wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2024 2:14 pm
Christians believe the Bible is the written word of God and is the divine inspiration of God. There are four characteristics of the Bible that show it is God’s Word: authority, clarity, necessity, and sufficiency.
Clarity is an impressive feature in any writings, and perhaps even more so in ancient ones, which are apt to be obscure to modern readers. I don't see clarity as such a wonder that it suggests inerrancy, though. Nor can the Bible really be all that clear, when its meaning has been disputed for centuries.

I'm afraid I also have a hard time following the rest of this reasoning. My question is not about what logical consequences ensue from accepting that the Bible is authoritative, but about why we should ever accept this in the first place. So, as to the other three characteristics you mention besides clarity: If the Bible is God's Word in the sense that you believe it to be, then it may very well follow that the Bible is authoritative, necessary, and sufficient. To assume in advance that it is those three things, however, and conclude from them that the Bible is God's Word in your sense, is a classic case of begging the question. You simply assume the thing you want to support.
The Bible claims it is God’s Word throughout the Old and New Testaments, ... and the Bible is self-attesting to the fact it is the Word of God. Jesus, the Son of God, also confirmed the Old Testament as the written Word of God, used it as such in His teachings, and confirmed its authority.
I don't see how it can make sense to believe that a book is authoritative just because it says that it is. That's circular. If a book were to deny its own authority, by saying things like, "Once upon a time ..." or "This is just a rumour ...", then that would be good reason to believe that the book was unreliable; but this doesn't work in reverse. I could write a text right now which asserts that it itself is infallible, and in my text I could have a character, based on a historical figure or not, say that the text is infallible. Those wouldn't be reasons to believe in my text.
fulfilled prophecies validate the Bible as God’s Word ...
Are you sure? There aren't actually many texts in the Bible that have even been claimed to be specific prophecies that have been fulfilled. So even if those handful of messianic so-called prophecies in Isaiah or geopolitical predictions in Daniel were real cases of accurate prophecy, they wouldn't do much to establish the general authority of the whole Bible. If you look closely at those few cases, moreover, they get shaky.

Those verses in Daniel look like a pretty good allegory for real middle-eastern history, all right—up to a point. Then they go right off the rails, and the only inerrantist reading of them that I know is to assume—without any indication from the text itself—that the prophecy suddenly jumps thousands of years into the future at that point, to End Times events that still haven't occurred. The obvious simpler explanation is that the point at which the prophecy fails is when Daniel was written, and that the accurate part of the allegory wasn't really prophecy at all, but known history. We have no other good evidence for exactly when the book was composed, after all.

And the messianic prophecies are stretched, if you really compare the Old Testament originals with the purported New Testament fulfillments. It looks rather as though the New Testament writers invented details to try to make Jesus's life match up with prophecies that they knew. Biblical prophecy is not really a good reason at all to believe in Biblical authority. The track record just isn't that good.
There are many resources documenting the historical reliability of the Bible.
I'm not sure about this one, either. There are a few points on which secular history and archaeology seem to corroborate Biblical stories. There's the Pilate Stone, for example, confirming that a guy named Pontius Pilate was indeed prefect in Judea around the supposed time of Jesus. These confirmable points are the exceptions rather than the rule, though. Furthermore, almost by definition, the historical details that can be confirmed in the Bible are mundane things that any ordinary ancient writings would be expected to report accurately. They aren't miraculous enough to be a reason to believe the Bible inerrant in everything that it says.
the Holy Spirit convicts us to the fact the Bible is God’s Word
This one might be a reason; it's personal and subjective. If we're honest, I'd say, it amounts to believing in the authority of an ancient book because of one's feelings. What exactly are these feelings, really?

Some might be genuine awe, the spooky sense that one has encountered a vaster mind with a vital message for us. Some of those feelings may also just be the wish to be sure about something, and to be part of a group. Being sure that what one feels is really the conviction of the Holy Spirit seems to me to be placing too much faith in fallible human judgement.
Christians believe the Bible is the written word of God and is the divine inspiration of God.
Coming back to your first line, I dispute it: I consider myself a Christian but I do not believe this. It seems bizarre to me, in fact, to believe in the major Christian beliefs only because one first commits to believing whatever the Bible may happen to have in it, and then discovers that what the Bible contains is Christian belief. The Bible may be the source from which I first learned of these concepts, but I don't believe them because they're in the Bible. On the contrary, the only reason I have for respecting the Bible at all is that it contains them. In a sense I know that 2+2 is 4 because my kindergarten teacher told me: I didn't know it until I heard it from her. I don't believe 2+2 is 4 because I believe in everything that nice lady said, though. For me, it's the same with the Bible.
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Re: Mormon Worldview

Post by pgm1985 »

Physics Guy wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2024 7:57 am
Coming back to your first line, I dispute it: I consider myself a Christian but I do not believe this. It seems bizarre to me, in fact, to believe in the major Christian beliefs only because one first commits to believing whatever the Bible may happen to have in it, and then discovers that what the Bible contains is Christian belief. The Bible may be the source from which I first learned of these concepts, but I don't believe them because they're in the Bible. On the contrary, the only reason I have for respecting the Bible at all is that it contains them. In a sense I know that 2+2 is 4 because my kindergarten teacher told me: I didn't know it until I heard it from her. I don't believe 2+2 is 4 because I believe in everything that nice lady said, though. For me, it's the same with the Bible.
If not the Bible, what do you hold to be the standard of truth and ultimate authority?
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Re: Mormon Worldview

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Statements about what we must always experience under given circumstances can be disproven by experience, if we can encounter those circumstances and find that experience does not agree with the prediction. Other than this standard of experience, which only works for experientially testable claims and can only disprove, never prove, there is no reliable standard that we can use to be sure what is true. Deciding to rely on the Bible, or anything else, does not change this, because that decision itself is unreliable.
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Re: Mormon Worldview

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pgm1985 wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2024 11:51 pm
The Bible is and always will be the standard of truth because it is God’s unchanging Word.
If the Bible is the standard of truth, why does it contradict itself so often?
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Re: Mormon Worldview

Post by huckelberry »

pgm1985 wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2024 10:37 am
Physics Guy wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2024 7:57 am
Coming back to your first line, I dispute it: I consider myself a Christian but I do not believe this. It seems bizarre to me, in fact, to believe in the major Christian beliefs only because one first commits to believing whatever the Bible may happen to have in it, and then discovers that what the Bible contains is Christian belief. The Bible may be the source from which I first learned of these concepts, but I don't believe them because they're in the Bible. On the contrary, the only reason I have for respecting the Bible at all is that it contains them. In a sense I know that 2+2 is 4 because my kindergarten teacher told me: I didn't know it until I heard it from her. I don't believe 2+2 is 4 because I believe in everything that nice lady said, though. For me, it's the same with the Bible.
If not the Bible, what do you hold to be the standard of truth and ultimate authority?
pgm1985, I do not see how anything other than God can be ultimate authority and standard of truth.

I see the problem much like Physics Guy's comments. I think that the Bible was created by many men and contains their limited knowledge of history. I believe God inspired these men not with perfection but awareness of what leads to God. I think the Holy Spirit uses the Bible to lead people to Christ and to be foundation for people's understanding and faith.

Concerning authority, I think it important to consider that God is the creator of the universe we live in. Because of that, science is human labor learning of the actions and concerns of God. Science is an act of respect for and faith in God.

Perhaps I should clarify for pgm that I left the LDS church decades ago and have been protestant Christian for a long time now.
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Re: Mormon Worldview

Post by pgm1985 »

Physics Guy wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2024 11:10 am
Statements about what we must always experience under given circumstances can be disproven by experience, if we can encounter those circumstances and find that experience does not agree with the prediction. Other than this standard of experience, which only works for experientially testable claims and can only disprove, never prove, there is no reliable standard that we can use to be sure what is true. Deciding to rely on the Bible, or anything else, does not change this, because that decision itself is unreliable.
So you’re saying truth is relative to one’s experience? How do you differentiate between what is moral and immoral?
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Re: Mormon Worldview

Post by drumdude »

pgm1985 wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2024 12:02 am
Physics Guy wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2024 11:10 am
Statements about what we must always experience under given circumstances can be disproven by experience, if we can encounter those circumstances and find that experience does not agree with the prediction. Other than this standard of experience, which only works for experientially testable claims and can only disprove, never prove, there is no reliable standard that we can use to be sure what is true. Deciding to rely on the Bible, or anything else, does not change this, because that decision itself is unreliable.
So you’re saying truth is relative to one’s experience? How do you differentiate between what is moral and immoral?
The same way you do. There are plenty of immoral acts in the Bible, like God commanding the genocide of women and children. You can either say that God commanding genocide is moral because everything God does is moral, or you can say that your own moral intuition is sufficient to tell you what God did in the Old Testament story was immoral.

If your worldview allows for God murdering and raping and calling that moral, that's not a very respectable worldview in my opinion. If your worldview allows you to criticise God, then you're in the same boat as the rest of us. Trying to navigate morality with our own values independent of God.
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Re: Mormon Worldview

Post by pgm1985 »

drumdude wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2024 12:10 am
The same way you do. There are plenty of immoral acts in the Bible, like God commanding the genocide of women and children. You can either say that God commanding genocide is moral because everything God does is moral, or you can say that your own moral intuition is sufficient to tell you what God did in the Old Testament story was immoral.

If your worldview allows for God murdering and raping and calling that moral, that's not a very respectable worldview in my opinion. If your worldview allows you to criticise God, then you're in the same boat as the rest of us. Trying to navigate morality with our own values independent of God.
You seem to have presuppositions that beg the question Christianity is false. This is clear when you use the term genocide of women and children and God called for raping. Your objection is to what you perceive to be how the Bible depicts God based on your moral standards and presuppositions, not God's moral standard. By viewing Scripture through a Christian worldview, I must allow that God has the authority to carry out His judgement on the Cannanites in method and time of His choosing. Deuteronomy 20:17-18 states: "Completely destroy them—the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites—as the LORD your God has commanded you. Otherwise, they will teach you to follow all the detestable things they do in worshiping their gods, and you will sin against the LORD your God." God commanded their killing because of their sin.

In the end, all of us are sinners (Romans 3:23) who deserve the punishment of death (Romans 6:23). Is God a moral monster for sending His son, Jesus, to suffer and die? No. "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.” (John 3:16-17) God loves us that despite our sin, He has given us a way to salvation through Jesus.

William Lane Craig provides a more detailed response here:
https://www.reasonablefaith.org/writing ... canaanites
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Re: Mormon Worldview

Post by drumdude »

pgm1985 wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2024 12:50 pm
drumdude wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2024 12:10 am
The same way you do. There are plenty of immoral acts in the Bible, like God commanding the genocide of women and children. You can either say that God commanding genocide is moral because everything God does is moral, or you can say that your own moral intuition is sufficient to tell you what God did in the Old Testament story was immoral.

If your worldview allows for God murdering and raping and calling that moral, that's not a very respectable worldview in my opinion. If your worldview allows you to criticise God, then you're in the same boat as the rest of us. Trying to navigate morality with our own values independent of God.
You seem to have presuppositions that beg the question Christianity is false. This is clear when you use the term genocide of women and children and God called for raping. Your objection is to what you perceive to be how the Bible depicts God based on your moral standards and presuppositions, not God's moral standard. By viewing Scripture through a Christian worldview, I must allow that God has the authority to carry out His judgement on the Cannanites in method and time of His choosing. Deuteronomy 20:17-18 states: "Completely destroy them—the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites—as the LORD your God has commanded you. Otherwise, they will teach you to follow all the detestable things they do in worshiping their gods, and you will sin against the LORD your God." God commanded their killing because of their sin.

In the end, all of us are sinners (Romans 3:23) who deserve the punishment of death (Romans 6:23). Is God a moral monster for sending His son, Jesus, to suffer and die? No. "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.” (John 3:16-17) God loves us that despite our sin, He has given us a way to salvation through Jesus.

William Lane Craig provides a more detailed response here:
https://www.reasonablefaith.org/writing ... canaanites
1 Samuel 15: 3
"Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.”

I have a moral intuition that this is wrong. I also have an education that leads me to believe this is just a man made fiction, or an exaggeration of what happened historically. The Christian has to do a lot of mental gymnastics to reconcile it, whereas I can see it for what it is. A barbaric relic of humanity’s past.

In your world, if you think God is telling you to kill an infant you will do it because you believe he has the authority to. That’s immoral to me.

You claim to have a moral foundation but that foundation is often rotten and is worse than no foundation at all. I can make a better foundation now by saying intentionally killing infants during war is always wrong.
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Re: Mormon Worldview

Post by huckelberry »

drumdude wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2024 1:52 pm
pgm1985 wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2024 12:50 pm
You seem to have presuppositions that beg the question Christianity is false. This is clear when you use the term genocide of women and children and God called for raping. Your objection is to what you perceive to be how the Bible depicts God based on your moral standards and presuppositions, not God's moral standard. By viewing Scripture through a Christian worldview, I must allow that God has the authority to carry out His judgement on the Cannanites in method and time of His choosing. Deuteronomy 20:17-18 states: "Completely destroy them—the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites—as the LORD your God has commanded you. Otherwise, they will teach you to follow all the detestable things they do in worshiping their gods, and you will sin against the LORD your God." God commanded their killing because of their sin.
1 Samuel 15: 3

"Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.”

I have a moral intuition that this is wrong. I also have an education that leads me to believe this is just a man made fiction, or an exaggeration of what happened historically. The Christian has to do a lot of mental gymnastics to reconcile it, whereas I can see it for what it is. A barbaric relic of humanity’s past.

In your world, if you think God is telling you to kill an infant you will do it because you believe he has the authority to. That’s immoral to me.

You claim to have a moral foundation but that foundation is often rotten and is worse than no foundation at all. I can make a better foundation now by saying intentionally killing infants during war is always wrong.
Drumdude, I do not know a reason to think pgm would think God is telling him to kill an infant. What would be happening to give him such an idea? Such ideas do not happen by accident but they could arise under strong circumstantial pressure. That would have to be circumstances plus the best moral reasoning a person could muster. However we see the Amalikites with our complete ignorance about them, it is clear that some Isrealites thought they were enough danger that they had to be destroyed in war. That would have been a decision based upon their best moral reasoning, the same sorts of reasoning you realize all humans must use.

Killing children in war is not something confined to the ancient past it has happened in all wars in the past hundred years. Bombing cities kills women and children.
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