Elder Oaks wants MORE Excommunications!

[Moksha]

Could Oaks be repudiating Nelson's birthday wish of tending to the 99th sheep and concentrating on the more obedient sheep that will furnish wool for Ensign Investments without complaining?

Let's hope Oaks does not take out his anger on the Haitian community and have them excommunicated from the Hogle Zoo.

[yellowstone123]

The question of whether politicians or celebrities receive special treatment within the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints raises interesting points regarding accountability and potential double standards.

High-profile figures like Prime Ministers, U.S. Senators, or celebrities seem to operate with a degree of latitude within the Church. President Nelson's encounter with New Zealand Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern, who was living with her partner and was the mother of a small child, illustrates this. Instead of handing her a letter with the date and time of her disciplinary hearing, she received a Book of Mormon.

Senator Marco Rubio's religious journey highlights another dimension. Despite his public wavering between Catholicism and Mormonism, including encouraging his family to return to the Catholic faith, he likely wouldn't face the same scrutiny as an average Church member. An ordinary member publicly rejoining their former faith would likely face disciplinary action, potentially even excommunication.

Celebrities like Amy Adams and Ryan Gosling, both reportedly Church members, haven't faced repercussions for living with their partners before marriage and having children. It's conceivable that the Church avoids potential scandals by not disciplining these high-profile individuals.

My advice to those who encounter such situations would be to ignore them. The Church has a history of selectively disclosing information, so there's no reason to offer them your own personal history. Elder Oaks himself spoke of a shift towards transparency, so why was it one-sided for so long? The Church has benefitted from people's minds, money, and time while withholding information that might have influenced their choices.

I recall a story of a famous author and former Church member who, as a youth, was summoned to a disciplinary council. He reportedly treated it as a joke, not taking it seriously. Hearing that, I thought, "Good for him. I wish I had done that."

[Moksha]

This could also be a wish by President Oaks that the Saints be put back into the peculiarity column of public regard. He probably remembers with fondness when members described themselves as a peculiar people. So he says to himself, Let's "Make Mormons Peculiar Again".

[huckelberry]

Hey RFM,

Around 9:00, Oaks said, “...when membership councils are held, the proportion of membership restrictions--especially withdrawal of membership--has also declined significantly.”

His point is that fewer councils are summoned (e.g. the total went from 20,000 per year to 10,000 per year), and that when councils are held, they are being more merciful (e.g. before 50% of councils result in excommunication, but now only 25% result in excommunication). Those two effects exacerbate the problem (e.g. the total number of excommunications per year went from 10,000 per year (20,000 x 50%) to a paltry 2,500 per year (10,000 x 25%)).

One would think if the priesthood were real and God was inspiring the local leaders to make the right decisions in this superlatively consequential priesthood function, Oaks wouldn’t second-guess what the local leaders are doing.

Was he really just saying the more members are excommunicated the fewer members are left to excommunicate?

Consiglieri, I watched your presentation. I thought Oaks view was logical. I understood him to be saying that if a person has seriously broken covenant then to be realistic they should start over at the very beginning to repair the damage. Well I see the logic but do not see that as the only possible path. Perhaps I can imagine some serious crimes where that path is appropriate. I would be thinking of more serious matters than Mr. Oaks appears to be considering.

If Oaks' logic was less frigid it might give more consideration to Yellowstone's observations.

[I Have Questions]

I wonder if the members who made the decisions that led to the Church being found guilty of deliberate and extensive financial wrongdoing (fraud) were invited to a disciplinary council?

[Dr. Shades]

Around 9:00, Oaks said, “...when membership councils are held, the proportion of membership restrictions--especially withdrawal of membership--has also declined significantly.”

His point is that fewer councils are summoned (e.g. the total went from 20,000 per year to 10,000 per year), and that when councils are held, they are being more merciful (e.g. before 50% of councils result in excommunication, but now only 25% result in excommunication). Those two effects exacerbate the problem (e.g. the total number of excommunications per year went from 10,000 per year (20,000 x 50%) to a paltry 2,500 per year (10,000 x 25%)).

In FAIR-ness, he's not actually saying that's a bad thing, is he?

[Bond]

A few reasons for the trend in fewer excommunications after thinking about it a few days.

1) The people who would normally be excommunicated for raising objections are leaving the church voluntarily (The Nemos are leaving rather than staying and raising objections)

2) The people who would normally be excommunicated as "malcontents" leave the church before they become problems (the Nemos are leaving as teens or young adults)

3) The Bishops and other local leaders at the local/stake level are doing fewer excommunications for small issues because they're just happy to have members or they think the "problem members" will leave eventually (At least the Nemos are coming and why push someone out the door whose clearly headed out the door?)

4) The Bishops are tolerant of objections as long as they aren't egregious and fairly anonymous (The Nemo's are minor headaches but he's still paying tithing. He's not embarrassing the church and he's not committing crimes, again membership is preferable)

5) Public embarrassment (especially sex crimes) or public questioning of the Church leadership is the best sure fire way to get excommunicated (I note "public")

6) The people quitting church voluntarily has been the de facto purge that Oaks thinks he wants. Most of the problem members he think exist in the Church are already gone. He just needs to update the census.

[Dwight]

If I may add to the list:

7) There are more hurdles to local leaders even knowing what is going on with everyone. Even in Utah the boundaries and inactive lists are getting bigger. Home/visiting teaching has been replaced with ministering which I've heard multiple times means even less people are getting checked up on from somebody from the church (for good and for bad). So even if they know someone is living in sin, then they also have to dedicate a least a couple of hours minimum to the court of love. Throw on top that since the church got rid of the professional cleaners then it more often falls to the few people who will actually show up to clean the church, so the local leaders are too busy cleaning instead of leading.

[I Have Questions]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23srTe3u1U8

RFM just demonstrated that Oaks is encouraging far more brotherly love to all sinners by kicking their sorry butts outta church. Oaks will be the downfall of the church, you heard that here first..... what a power hungry guy.

The intro says “local leaders” but who, specifically, was Oaks giving this presentation to?

[Bond]

If I may add to the list:

7) There are more hurdles to local leaders even knowing what is going on with everyone. Even in Utah the boundaries and inactive lists are getting bigger. Home/visiting teaching has been replaced with ministering which I've heard multiple times means even less people are getting checked up on from somebody from the church (for good and for bad). So even if they know someone is living in sin, then they also have to dedicate a least a couple of hours minimum to the court of love. Throw on top that since the church got rid of the professional cleaners then it more often falls to the few people who will actually show up to clean the church, so the local leaders are too busy cleaning instead of leading.

Yep. As the wards outside of the Corridor grow bigger and bigger geographically and the number of men shrinks the pure logistics of getting enough people there to do a court of love is going to make it difficult. It might work in SLC but what about rural Alabama? How long until it's just the bishop and the clerk to take notes because the counselors live 90 minutes away and their kids have football practice? The time demands are either going to drive faithful people out of callings or they just do away with the time sinks as they've already cut meeting times. "Does that guy really need to be excommunicated? Let's give him three months and see what happens." See Rules #3 and 4.