Physics Guy wrote: ↑Wed Aug 20, 2025 11:24 am
Probably most people don’t always strictly need to believe in any higher power in order to do the right thing, but how hard it is to do the right thing can vary a lot. Sometimes it’s easy. Sometimes it’s difficult.
It may also differ among people. Perhaps some people are just so naturally righteous that they will act nobly even at great risk to their lives. Perhaps other people are so morally handicapped that it takes great conscious effort for them to muster the least shred of decency.
Everybody could use some help, sometimes. Sincerely believing in a higher power who will reward or assist right actions, and hinder or punish wrong ones, is bound to tip the scales at least somewhat. People don’t always act rationally or follow their principles perfectly, but people’s beliefs about future consequences or circumstances do affect what they do, at least somewhat and sometimes.
If there is any effect at all of belief upon action then some value in religious belief has to be recognized. Religiously based morality isn’t simply one way of being moral that’s no better than others, because whatever other aids or inducements to moral behavior may also exist, besides belief in a higher power, those other aids are also available to believers. The buff to virtue from faith stacks with others.
The amount of value one concedes to belief here does not have to be decisive. Perhaps it’s greater than zero but not great enough to outweigh costs or risks that come with belief—such as the risk of ending up doing bad things because one believes God commands them.
And the amount of belief that it takes to give a boost to moral fortitude is probably not much more than a vague hope. Moral returns on religious investment may diminish quite fast with increasing investment. I’m not sure I have enough experience with either firm and detailed conviction or heroic virtue to judge that.
Denying any weight at all to the argument that religious belief can bolster morality doesn’t make sense to me, though. It seems to be a legitimate point as far as it goes.
Immanuel Kant would agree with you I think. After making morality a matter of pure logic and unsure of the value of emotive-based living, such as feeding your kid because affection for the child, he came up with his pragmatic argument for God. After all of this, there must be some kind of reward for living a good life.
I don't buy it. I might be able to agree this much. Belief in a higher power seems universal among primitive cultures and so there must be an evolutionary advantage to it. At least for primitive people. Not saying we're much beyond the primitive stage if you look at right-wing politics. But, I think belief is wrapped up tightly with tribalism. People like myself as a child absolutely did do "the right thing" many times due to God, but that's things like, try not to be bored at church. Read the scriptures. Pay tithing. Don't swear or tell bad jokes.
I remember as a child there was a shadowy figure of our neighborhood, his name was Steve. He was the older brother of my best friend who lived up the street. We were Mormon and they were Baptist, and our families were equally devout within their faiths. We invited them to Mormon functions and they invited us to Baptist functions, we went once hoping they would come to ours in return, which they didn't. Anyway, I'd see Steve now and again walking around the neighborhood with his long hair and a beard. I never remember him being at my friends house. I'd never spoke to him. I remember my dad telling my mom one afternoon that he picked up Steve, who had been hitchhiking, and took him somewhere. Said he was really friendly. Later, my mom told us he had joined the Peace Corps.
Steve's broader social awareness most certainly correlated with his disdain for traditional views of God, though I never discussed this with him. Just a guess. While at the same time, the goodness of his parents and even their faith likely played some kind of role in him making a positive rebellious choice rather than a negative one. So I think where I'm at here, to the extent God belief makes people better, it's through the channel of tribalism to the extent that tribalism makes people better. Terribly mixed. Beyond that it's hard to say. Perhaps there is a spark of culturally instilled God belief within the Steves out there, or perhaps God was a placeholder for something else that is more readily implemented by people post traditional mythology. Evolution is pretty indifferent, it's very possible that belief in God helps morality though that claim is more likely circular.
Lost Gospel of Thomas 1:8 - And Jesus said, "what about the Pharisees? They did it too! Wherefore, we shall do it even more!"
