Temples dotting/covering the earth.

[malkie]

On a serious note, I'd like to point out something about MG, and his participation here.

in my opinion, we are fortunate to have him - sincerely. I don't think it's that - as someone suggested - we need MG (perhaps more than he needs us). It's been demonstrated during his absences that we can have excellent discussions without MG's input.

That seems to be a contradiction. If it's been demonstrated that there are excellent discussions without MG's input, why have you concluded that the board needs MG more than MG needs the board?

IHQ, I think you may have misread what I said. I've bolded and italicized within the quote.

That is, someone (Limnor has fessed up!) suggested - we need MG perhaps more than he needs us. My statement disagrees, as I don't think that is the case.

"It's been demonstrated ..." reaffirms the idea.

[malkie]

In this respect you could consider me to be a fan. I may not believe we need MG, but I definitely believe we are lucky to have him here.

I’ll grant you that the comedy relief is high, but frankly I wish he would do a better job of defending. I’ve been challenged by others regarding faith issues, but with MG it always comes back to something like he’s not being convinced enough to change his mind. I guess I’d like to see more of an argument “for” rather than the constant “dodge” that removes the burden of proof from him.

Granted. MG might say I lack the spirit, or am under the influence of evil/Satan (as the former counselor in out little branch in Canada used to tell me), but I feel sometimes that MG's contributions descend to the level of complete nonsense in trying to find plausible demonstrations of the existence and attributes of his chosen "creator-god", and the benefits of Mormonism.

In a talk to Seminary teachers, The Mantle is Far, Far Greater Than the Intellect (a rich source of debatable quotes),

You seminary teachers and some of you institute and BYU men will be teaching the history of the Church this school year. This is an unparalleled opportunity in the lives of your students to increase their faith and testimony of the divinity of this work. Your objective should be that they will see the hand of the Lord in every hour and every moment of the Church from its beginning till now.

The Mantle is Far, Far Greater Than the Intellect
Apologists may take this exhortation to apply outside the field of seminary and institute, but sometimes it seems to require a bit of a stretch to achieve that objective.

[Shulem]

Some would say that the Lord (God) is speedily moving forth His work and that no unhallowed hand can stop it.

I am very aware of the vicious threats made by Joseph Smith during his ministry in which he sought to take over all religion and supplant a monarchy with himself as a temporary spiritual king serving under the direction of an invisible king who was said to be coming, even at the doors. Listen, Smith was a murderer at heart and had a vicious and cruel streak about him in attempting to instill fear in the hearts and minds of those who heard his message. He was a mean SOB and mistreated everyone who opposed his ideas. He, like Donald Trump, was a dictator! Mormonism was built for the sole purpose of taking everyone over. It's that simple.

Behold, vengeance cometh speedily upon the inhabitants of the earth, a day of wrath, a day of burning, a day of desolation, of weeping, of mourning, and of lamentation; and as a whirlwind it shall come upon all the face of the earth, saith the Lord.

BS! These are scare tactics given nearly 200 years ago designed solely to instill fear.

Guess what? It doesn't work! The latter days are over. We have moved on.

"speedily," my ass.

------------------------------

Hi Marcus!

[MG 2.0]

That seems to be a contradiction. If it's been demonstrated that there are excellent discussions without MG's input, why have you concluded that the board needs MG more than MG needs the board?

It was me who said the board needs MG more than MG needs the board. But I don’t mean need in the sense of capacity for good discussion—discussions without MG sidetracks are typically very good. What I meant is you can count on MG to provoke discussion. He provides a consistent stream of absurdity that keeps threads from going quiet. He’s almost the reverse idea of “opposition in all things.” What could make his participation better would be more challenging arguments.

Limnor, you may think my conclusions are wrong, but you and others apparently find them worth engaging at length. And then coming back and coming back for more. That seems to be evidence that my participation is not objectively worthless.

There have been a few posters that explicitly said they would no longer engage with me and that they would put me on ignore, but they have changed their tune. Why is that?

It might also be worth remembering that being labeled “absurd” is a value judgment from critics who strongly disagree with my premises, not an objective measure of the contribution I add to the board. Your irritation is at least partly a function of the deep divide between believing and critical lenses that at times you have acknowledged.

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

MG's contributions descend to the level of complete nonsense in trying to find plausible demonstrations of the existence and attributes of his chosen "creator-god", and the benefits of Mormonism.

malkie, my response to you would be similar to the one I gave to Limnor. I would just add that in a pluralistic forum (supposedly), contributions that many find wrongheaded can still be valuable if they clarify issues, expose assumptions, or sharpen counterarguments.

I would think that you would agree with this.

That doesn't mean that the original arguments presented are "wrongheaded". As I said, it depends on the lens that you are looking through.

Regards,
MG

[I Have Questions]

That seems to be a contradiction. If it's been demonstrated that there are excellent discussions without MG's input, why have you concluded that the board needs MG more than MG needs the board?

IHQ, I think you may have misread what I said. I've bolded and italicized within the quote.

That is, someone (Limnor has fessed up!) suggested - we need MG perhaps more than he needs us. My statement disagrees, as I don't think that is the case.

"It's been demonstrated ..." reaffirms the idea.

You have my unconditional and unreserved apology. I got it wrong. Misread it. I hold my hands up.

[I Have Questions]

Here are some excellent graphics showing LDS temples around the world. When I served my mission there were 18 temples if I remember correctly. Sometimes we might hear critics talk about the money grubbing leaders of the church. As if their mission were to enrich the church and/or themselves. As one looks at all these temples and their locations it might not be too difficult to imagine the amount of resources that go into temple operations throughout the world. This is something that couldn't have been considered at any other time in earth's history.

Scroll to bottom link where it says:

See 6 maps showing locations around the world of the Church’s 383 temples.

https://www.thechurchnews.com/temples/

Those of us that are getting a little older, believers or not, who were around decades ago can't help be be amazed, at least to some degree, at the rolling forth of the work of building temples. Sure, you can go hither and thither on why the church invests so much of its resources in building Houses of the Lord, but nonetheless, it's quite the thing when you take the time to consider it.

Whatever one thinks, it is an interesting fact that so many people in so many places in the world now have the opportunity...from their perspective...to make and keep covenants of the Lord made in His Holy House.

Any other church 'rolling forth' its sacred edifices (other than meeting houses) like this?

Do you acknowledge the many examples provided that show quite a few other religions are doing exactly that, and more, and that your original stance that the SLC LDS was above all others in doing so was wrong? (For reference this is a test of your character).

[Shulem]

...no unhallowed hand can stop it.

The Mormons can be stopped and prevented from doing certain things, polygamy for example, even though the prophets command it and break the laws in doing so, it can be forcibly stopped. Temple construction is only allowed to go forward so long as people allow it. Mormon God does not build temples, people do! Mormon God can't do anything other than whistle a tune up in heaven and hope people are dumb enough to bow down before him and worship him with their faces to the ground.

• Missouri Temple -- STOPPED

• Nauvoo House -- STOPPED

If the people demand it and society crumbles into chaos, all of the Mormon temples could be bulldozed and the leadership of the church jailed or executed. Yes, that could happen, sad to say.

[I Have Questions]

Some would say that the Lord (God) is speedily moving forth His work and that no unhallowed hand can stop it.

Some people would say that. But they won’t be able to provide data that supports such a conclusion. There’s arguably only 6 or 7 million that would consider themselves as active in the SLC LDS religion. Maybe half of that number (I’m being generous) are adult tithe paying temple recommend holding members. So optimistically that’s 0.05% of the population attending a SLC LDS temple, occasionally. I’m not sure why an unhallowed hand would be needed to stop such an insignificant thing.

Are you sure you’re not conflating buildings with what your Lord means when He talks about doing His work? I might be wrong, but I’m pretty sure He wasn’t big into real estate or financial investments. Amassing wealth is what the SLC LDS Church has done really well. That’s what you should be lauding. The temple building marketing scheme is a drop in that ocean.

[Marcus]

Speaking of the constant stream of absurdity, it's entertaining that after being caught not only quoting but directly "engaging" with the person he frequently states that he "ignores," mentalgymnast posted this bit of obvious projection:

...There have been a few posters that explicitly said they would no longer engage with me and that they would put me on ignore, but they have changed their tune. Why is that? ...

I’ll grant you that the comedy relief is high, but frankly I wish he would do a better job of defending. I’ve been challenged by others regarding faith issues, but with MG it always comes back to something like he’s not being convinced enough to change his mind. I guess I’d like to see more of an argument “for” rather than the constant “dodge” that removes the burden of proof from him.

Granted. MG might say I lack the spirit, or am under the influence of evil/Satan (as the former counselor in out little branch in Canada used to tell me), but I feel sometimes that MG's contributions descend to the level of complete nonsense in trying to find plausible demonstrations of the existence and attributes of his chosen "creator-god", and the benefits of Mormonism...

This is the tragic part of this comedy of errors. But mentalgymnast seems to not mind showing, regularly and repeatedly, the utter lack of logic that the defense of Mormonism requires. It's useful to see what that looks like, as it only bolsters, or, as mentalgymnast put it himself, "sharpen(s) counterarguments," that is, arguments that point out the non-facts he states as factual.

(Hello Shulem!!)