Do we all agree now that UBI is the right thing to do?

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

Are you this afraid of social security?

Is that what Elon means by Universal High Income? Just putting everyone on social security and medicare? I'm not sure $1500 could get me through the week, let alone a month. Are people going work under the table for their real income the way people on SSI/disability or social security to do now?

Tim Dillon would like a word with you:

https://www.reddit.com/r/PredictionTimes/s/3QNVUznHqN

[ajax18]

I guess you'll never be allowed to know any of details of UBI until it is implemented and enforced. I can hear Democrat politicians now, "We have to pass the UBI bill first, so that we can see what's in it."

[Philo Sofee]

If you disagree with him politically and say so can he dock you $500 that month for punishment? The government can and will. Just look at how Donald treats Blue states! That is what I fear. If your boss decides you have to eat with him/her at their own choice of restaurant and you refuse or can't do they punish you for it? What if they tell you you can only wear certain clothing or drive certain types of vehicles? What if they take away your solar and or wind power? Are you forced to wear the same kinds of shoes as your boss is or you make less per month for a year until you conform? Etc. I can think of all kinds of scenarios where the government would be the single worse arbiter for your own decisions which it may or may not let you do.

That sounds an awful lot like Kim Jong Un's North Korea to me.

This is what our own America is becoming under Trump. To think of him giving the billionaire class unlimited power even to the point of dictating who gets how much money is terrifying.

[Philo Sofee]

If you disagree with him politically and say so can he dock you $500 that month for punishment? The government can and will. Just look at how Donald treats Blue states! That is what I fear. If your boss decides you have to eat with him/her at their own choice of restaurant and you refuse or can't do they punish you for it? What if they tell you you can only wear certain clothing or drive certain types of vehicles? What if they take away your solar and or wind power? Are you forced to wear the same kinds of shoes as your boss is or you make less per month for a year until you conform? Etc. I can think of all kinds of scenarios where the government would be the single worse arbiter for your own decisions which it may or may not let you do.

Trump used to be a private employer. When he was, he could have done all of those things. My employer could do them too. That’s what at-will employment is all about: you don’t like something your employer does, you’re fired.

Are you this afraid of social security?

When its run by billionaires who have no Constitutional law or need to follow fairness, HELL YES. Social Security doesn't punish you for your views by lowering your payments until you comply. Trump and the billionaires DO. I ***DO NOT TRUST THEM***

[Philo Sofee]

Is that what Elon means by Universal High Income? Just putting everyone on social security and medicare? I'm not sure $1500 could get me through the week, let alone a month. Are people going work under the table for their real income the way people on SSI/disability or social security to do now?

Tim Dillon would like a word with you:

https://www.reddit.com/r/PredictionTimes/s/3QNVUznHqN

Great clip! Yes, Dillon's about face from MAGA is truly astonishing! I betchta AJAX fears watching him for very many episodes as the rest of us have been doing, because he knows the sheer force of logic about the fakeness of everything Trump says will also force him to Show Trump as a fraudster instead of his suckling partner in crime.

[canpakes]

I guess you'll never be allowed to know any of details of UBI until it is implemented and enforced. I can hear Democrat politicians now, "We have to pass the UBI bill first, so that we can see what's in it."

You do remember that the fellows pushing the UBI theme now are aligned and in bed with Trump, correct? The fellow whose quote inspired this thread donated a jillion dollars to Trump’s 2024 campaign and was handed his own brand-spanking-new government agency afterward to do as he pleased with it.

Think on that one, but don’t forget to also answer the earlier question about why you believe that people receiving UBI for not working would be more inclined than ever to claim disability … presumably to be paid less than what the other people also not working would be paid.

[Gadianton]

I think even more people would be faking some kind of disability than we see now under such a system

Not to point out the obvious, but in a system where no one has jobs, what would it matter?

I'm along the same lines as Canpakes here, universal basic income sounds like the kind of thing you can get without faking sick. If it really is implemented one day, I'm sure a whole lot of illiterates on Ajax's side will show up with fake injuries when they apply.

Gad, what is different about the AI situation in the near future from the Luddites before the industrial revolution? Wouldn't the billionaire overlords just spend and invest their money they saved through AI, thus opening up new jobs and industries for human beings?

You could make that point to your guy. Ask Elon why we would need UBI, he's the one suggesting it. Won't his space nonsense and robots and bottom-feeder LLM just make people more productive? Instead of suggesting UBI, shouldn't he suggest something more DOGE-like, like a reduction of benefits since the free market would make everyone so much more productive and transform the world into a free utopia? Why don't you call him to repentance, Ajax, as he seems to have forgotten what he's supposed to believe.

Well, concerning the industrial revolution, yes, it led to all the modern benefits we have today, but it was a long road of capital reallocation. A hundred years of misery for early factory workers along with countless trades people across the world wiped out by the cheap imports. Tens of millions starved to death thanks to the industrial revolution. Perhaps AI won't take everyone's job, but just take 60 percent of them and leave tens of millions to starve and take three generations to recover from. In that case, I assume you don't see a problem.

But, the tech bros are making a stronger claim than this, as they are predicting AGI just around the corner. Technology so far has allowed people to be more productive on average. The idea with AGI is that people simply won't be needed anymore. Well, I think "what does the economy even mean?" at that point is a good question, but to keep it simple, the idea is that there would be no new jobs for humans since anything you can think of, a robot can do better and for cheaper -- and there is no point in trying to think of use cases since robots will better come up with the use cases.

[canpakes]

Gad, what is different about the AI situation in the near future from the Luddites before the industrial revolution? Wouldn't the billionaire overlords just spend and invest their money they saved through AI, thus opening up new jobs and industries for human beings?

You could make that point to your guy. Ask Elon why we would need UBI, he's the one suggesting it. Won't his space nonsense and robots and bottom-feeder LLM just make people more productive? Instead of suggesting UBI, shouldn't he suggest something more DOGE-like, like a reduction of benefits since the free market would make everyone so much more productive and transform the world into a free utopia?

Am I misreading ajax, or is he really suggesting that billionaires advocating for AI to replace the workforce would be doing so to hire the displaced workforce into new jobs so that they can then be replaced by AI?

[Res Ipsa]

Trump used to be a private employer. When he was, he could have done all of those things. My employer could do them too. That’s what at-will employment is all about: you don’t like something your employer does, you’re fired.

Are you this afraid of social security?

When its run by billionaires who have no Constitutional law or need to follow fairness, HELL YES. Social Security doesn't punish you for your views by lowering your payments until you comply. Trump and the billionaires DO. I ***DO NOT TRUST THEM***

UBI would be a government program, like Social Security is a government program.

[Gadianton]

Isn't Philo just saying, sure, it's ran by the government but the government is ran by billionaires?