Holland's second "scolding" at BYU

[Shulem]

Again, I can't say for sure of he intended for that to happen, but I can all but guarantee he knew it might.

And if it does happen he will be answering for it when the news crews come knocking on the door. The world will be watching and questions will loom.

In which case the family of the murdered victim(s) should seek legal counsel and sue for redress from the Church.

Some might even consider accusing Holland for inciting violence and call for an investigation by law enforcement.

[Doctor Scratch]

Very well said, Dr. Robbers. DCP clearly approves of Holland’s talk, and yet he also claimed to “agree” with Smoot’s recent FAIR presentation. But the main points at the heart of each talk couldn’t be further away from each other.

Hear you on this. But I think if pressed, both would hold the line and disagree, arguing that the talks were compatible, key points being (a) love and compassion necessary, and (b) obedience to God’s law as revealed by living prophets is also necessary.

I admit that it's been a long time since the term "Cognitive Dissonance" had this much relevance, but I think you're probably right, Dr. Moore--at least for DCP. That said, I kind of doubt that Smoot is really in favor of a life of loneliness and celibacy for all LGBTQ+ people. As for Dr. Peterson, this is what he said:

I was very pleased to read the remarks delivered by Elder Jeffrey R. Holland

I'm curious which aspects of Holland's talk are a call for "compassion" in any meaningful sense? What does that look like, in the Mopologists' eyes, particularly in light of their homophobic remarks?

[Equality]

My cynical take after a day to think about it:

The timing of this talk is not coincidental. Holland was sent out to shore up the base. It's as simple as that. Last week, Rusty "Donuts" Nelson told the members of the church that they should get vaccinated and wear masks. And the base went crazy. The DezNats openly rebelled against the Prophet's counsel and started attacking the Brethren. So this week they sent Droopy Dog out to get them back in the tent.

The LDS LGBTQ community are the easiest targets to serve up as a blood sacrifice to the DezNat base.

And it worked. The right-wingers are ecstatic and all abuzz about how Holland really stuck it to the "Marxist critical theory" professors they think have infiltrated and taken over BYU.* And the church leaders are thrilled. If some of the DezNatters take Holland too literally and get out their "muskets," this is acceptable collateral damage from the corporation's point of view. The DezNats, the thinking goes, will merely go after the LGBTQ community who deserve whatever violence they suffer. After all, those LGBTQ people have been sowing "division" what with all their rainbow flags and parades and "symbols" and such, right?

*Example from a comment on a Mormon friend's Facebook wall by one of these right-wing "iron rod" Mormon types: "I have long suspected that the wokeism and slavish bowing to intersectionality and critical theory (a Marxist creation) that we’ve been seeing at BYU have at least SOMETHING to do with accreditation. I also know however that BYU students have been raised and educated in the same social media world as everyone else their age and that have attended the same victim/oppressor lectures and classes in school. Thus, there is likely a lot of pressure from the students, and frankly a lot of faculty and staff, BYU to be just like every other university and adopt the pablum." The comments on various sites where the talk has been posted or reported on contain similar sentiments. Looks like ole Rusty managed to successfully change the conversation to win back the hearts and minds of the DezNats.

Looks like we have a Mormon friend in common, I’m having lunch with said friend this week to talk about this issue and why I left the church. Should be fun, maybe I’ll be able to help him join us over here.

Good luck (whoever you are). Tell him I said hi. He's one of the "good ones," by which I mean active LDS friends who have continued to be friends with me even when I have, at times over the last 15 years, expressed my true thoughts and feelings about the LDS church without reservation and without censoring the language I use (though I have tried for the most part not to be bombastic on such friends' Facebook walls--I've always tried to keep my most vociferous opinions about the church in my own sandbox or places like this here). I think I have about half a dozen such friends remaining (the guy whose comment I posted here, on the other hand? Well, let's just say he and I butted heads quite a bit in law school and have gone rounds online more than once over the years).

[FinOilThat]

Do you guys feel embarrassed to tell people your degree is from BYU?

Not applicable.

[ceeboo]

Do you guys feel embarrassed to tell people your degree is from BYU?

No, I didn't go to BYU nor do I have a degree, from anywhere - but I am a first year, first semester community college dropout.

[Alphus and Omegus]

Jesus said put away the sword. Holland, Oaks, et al, says use the musket...

There's a Bible verse for any perspective. Holland and company would likely suggest Matthew 10:34:

"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword."

[Rivendale]

David Bokovoy says it well over on Facebook:

When and if there is a horrific act of violence against an LGBTQ person at BYU there will be questions brought to the press about Holland's address given for the purpose to incite such violence whether intended or not. Holland will be questioned. He has put himself in grave danger if things really go south and someone out there performs rabid violence. It could be said that Holland helped instigate said violence with religious undertones to that effect.

Oh boy. You screwed up Holland! Big time gamble on your part.

Holland did say he will literally die on this hill. I don't think the leaders care at all about these collateral damage victims. What I don't think they realize is the number of members that have kids or relatives who are LGBTQ is huge. Like in the movie Jaws when Richard Dreyfuss a.k.a. Hooper..."I think that I am familiar with the fact that you are going to ignore this particular problem until it swims up and BITES YOU ON THE ASS!"

[Dr Moore]

I don't think the leaders care at all about these collateral damage victims.

He gives lip service to caring for "all of God's children" but the premise of his talk can be reduced to the letter he read from that parent whose BYU student left the church after attending BYU.

He cares the most about those who will support him (and other church leaders) the most.

[Gadianton]

I'm curious which aspects of Holland's talk are a call for "compassion" in any meaningful sense? What does that look like, in the Mopologists' eyes, particularly in light of their homophobic remarks?

I think Midgley has a great answer for this when he said regarding Kimball's talks, "My reason was that I enjoy being scolded by him. He did not dance around the crucial issues."

The context was sexual sins, as his reminiscing about the prison indicated. Notice that in the prison, all were either "never members" or "former members".

I think when Midgley attacked his classmate as a youth, that was an "act of compassion" from his perspective. And so the parts about the musket were probably seen as compassionate by both Midgley and DCP. There's some bizarre psychology at play here, because Midgley's recount of his prison missionary work indicated that it was in fact the famous Kimball hellfire over sexual sins at issue -- Midgely enjoyed being scolded about that?

It's either a really odd admission, or a dishonest one. Whatever his worthiness, I highly doubt he viewed himself guilty of sexual transgressions; certainly he wouldn't be admitting to it online. I'd have to say from his perspective, he enjoyed Kimball scolding other people, with himself as a token audience member to whom the words don't really apply. I mean, seriously, Midgley goes into meltdown mode at the slightest hint of criticism. The only way he'd enjoy being scolded is as a backhanded compliment, "Why Lou, you already broke the kids nose, did you really have to break his arm also?"

Anyway, the short answer is that for the apologists, God is compassionate with he kicks the *s* out of people they don't like, and uses the apologists as his hand to carry out the work. It's compassionate for God to correct people who disagree with the apologists, and it's compassionate for God to allow the apologists to be the instruments of correction.

[Alphus and Omegus]

Anyway, the short answer is that for the apologists, God is compassionate with he kicks the *s* out of people they don't like, and uses the apologists as his hand to carry out the work. It's compassionate for God to correct people who disagree with the apologists, and it's compassionate for God to allow the apologists to be the instruments of correction.

Exactly. And they have all kinds of silly scripture citations they can use, such as D&C 121:43: "Reproving betimes with sharpness, when moved upon by the Holy Ghost."

It looks like that one is a personal favorite of Mopologist Bob Millet:
https://rsc.BYU.edu/vol-2-no-1-2001/rep ... pness-when

Tragically, it seems that Holland the others in the Q15 have not moved beyond Boyd Packer's urging young men to assault suspected gays. The Q15, tragically, will not bear the consequences of this advocacy.