Are you pro life?

[Atlanticmike]

So what you're saying is that a life taken in a car accident because someone was driving drunk is less important than a life taken by a gun used in robbery?

That's not what I'm saying at all. I', saying we've already taken measures to regulate driving and alcohol consumption, which effectively minimized deaths. We haven't even begun to do the same with guns because there is too much public outcry my the minority ignorant who think they have a Constitutional right to own any kind of gun they want. They don't. Even the Conservative Justice Scalia said as much.

Do you not care that obesity is an epidemic in the United States?

Not as much, because my neighbor over eating doesn't place a risk on my life or the life of my children or the lives of anyone else for that matter. However, my neighbor filling his house up with loaded guns while kids are there unsupervised, represents a clear and direct danger to me and the lives of my loved ones.

It is one thing to see my toddler die from eating a tidepod. That is something I could look back on and know I had control over that and should have made sure those products were out of her reach. It is another thing for someone to be killed while sitting in the comfort of his own home, because some gun happy moron from a quarter mile away was careless with a loaded gun.

Last month one of our neighbors fired a few shots in his backyard. Our neighborhood Facebook page was livid with him because every other home has kids, but he said he was just trying to shoot coyotes. There were no coyotes, but even if there were, this is a small neighborhood of 90 homes all of which are no more than 15 ft apart. This moron had no business firing his weapon, which was actually against an ordinance forbidding the firing of firearms within the city.

How many times have you been shot at? Do you have any family members living in the USA who have been shot at? There's 400,000,000 guns and 30,000,000,000 rounds of ammunition in the USA. How many times have you had to duck and take cover?

I don't know how old you are but let's just say you're 45. That means you have lived 16,425 days. Have you ever had to take cover because you were being shot at while living out those 16,425 days?

[Alf'Omega]

How many times have you been shot at? Do you have any family members living in the USA who have been shot at? There's 400,000,000 guns and 30,000,000,000 rounds of ammunition in the USA. How many times have you had to duck and take cover?

I know of literally four people who have been shot at, and all four of them died. How did they get shot?

One was killed by his brother while hunting. It was an accident. I was in grade school with the shooter. His brother was two months away from graduating HS when his brother shot him thinking he was a deer in the trees.

The second, I didn't know personally, but an ex-fiance of mine told me the story about how her 14 year old brother was accidentally killed by his Dad at the house. Her father had guns in every room, and one day he had his gun in a vise while cleaning it when his son stuck his head around the door and said "Boo." The gun went off and killed him instantly, which wasn't surprising since the bullet went straight through his eye ball.

A third person was a little kid I knew in my teens. I found out about ten years ago that he had joined the air force, and was getting ready to go to grad school before he went on a hunting trip in the mountains. They found him a week later, at the bottom of a hill, and he apparently fell and accidentally shot himself.

A fourth victim I didn't know personally, but I knew his aunt. This was a toddler who found his parent's gun and ended up killing himself. Nothing is sadder than toddler death by guns owned by the parents, and this kind of tragedy happens mostly in states where guns are plenty and gun laws are weak.

I don't know how old you are but let's just say you're 45. That means you have lived 16,425 days. Have you ever had to take cover because you were being shot at while living out those 16,425 days?

This is a great question. And the answer is I've never had to "take cover" but who knows when to take cover? Sometimes I think those are fireworks going off outside or a car backfiring, only to find out later they were gun shots. But I'm over the age of 50, and in all my years I've never been in a situation where I thought to myself, I wish I had a gun to protect myself. That's because these imaginary scenarios of armed people kicking in your doors to steal your flat screen, to rape your wife and molest your children, are just that. Imaginary. Hence, no one needs a gun. And if they do, it is because there are too many people with guns already.

My anecdotal experience with guns above goes to the point that you don't make yourself safer by owning a gun. By owning a gun all you're doing is creating more possibilities for either you or your loved ones to be killed by gunshot.

[Atlanticmike]

How many times have you been shot at? Do you have any family members living in the USA who have been shot at? There's 400,000,000 guns and 30,000,000,000 rounds of ammunition in the USA. How many times have you had to duck and take cover?

I know of literally four people who have been shot at, and all four of them died. How did they get shot?

One was killed by his brother while hunting. It was an accident. I was in grade school with the shooter. His brother was two months away from graduating HS when his brother shot him thinking he was a deer in the trees.

The second, I didn't know personally, but an ex-fiance of mine told me the story about how her 14 year old brother was accidentally killed by his Dad at the house. Her father had guns in every room, and one day he had his gun in a vise while cleaning it when his son stuck his head around the door and said "Boo." The gun went off and killed him instantly, which wasn't surprising since the bullet went straight through his eye ball.

A third person was a little kid I knew in my teens. I found out about ten years ago that he had joined the air force, and was getting ready to go to grad school before he went on a hunting trip in the mountains. They found him a week later, at the bottom of a hill, and he apparently fell and accidentally shot himself.

A fourth victim I didn't know personally, but I knew his aunt. This was a toddler who found his parent's gun and ended up killing himself. Nothing is sadder than toddler death by guns owned by the parents, and this kind of tragedy happens mostly in states where guns are plenty and gun laws are weak.

I don't know how old you are but let's just say you're 45. That means you have lived 16,425 days. Have you ever had to take cover because you were being shot at while living out those 16,425 days?

This is a great question. And the answer is I've never had to "take cover" but who knows when to take cover? Sometimes I think those are fireworks going off outside or a car backfiring, only to find out later they were gun shots. But I'm over the age of 50, and in all my years I've never been in a situation where I thought to myself, I wish I had a gun to protect myself. That's because these imaginary scenarios of armed people kicking in your doors to steal your flat screen, to rape your wife and molest your children, are just that. Imaginary. Hence, no one needs a gun. And if they do, it is because there are too many people with guns already.

My anecdotal experience with guns above goes to the point that you don't make yourself safer by owning a gun. By owning a gun all you're doing is creating more possibilities for either you or your loved ones to be killed by gunshot.

To be serious with you for a minute. I know plenty of people who have been raped and molested and none of them thought it was imaginary. Women are raped during home invasions all the time. Why do feel like you have the right to dictate how they should or shouldn't protect themselves against a home invasion because you think home invasions are ""imaginary""?

Also, I can drive ten minutes down the street and enter a neighborhood where just about every household that can afford gun has a one for protection because of such a high crime rate. The neighborhood is made up of extremely poor people living pay check to pay check. Many households are elderly people who sleep with a gun beside them because of the crime rate in that area. Do you realize not everyone in America is as well off as a couple of middle aged white dudes talking on the internet?

Were these ladies really raped during a home invasion or was she just imagining it?

https://youtu.be/z1_qM5Jvx9E

https://youtu.be/IgxAE75LhDs

https://youtu.be/ZFxC7N3af5g

https://youtu.be/udACQmZadyM

https://youtu.be/2Sk_RVH4t5k

[Chap]

In some countries (TYPE G) it is comparatively easy for anybody to buy a gun.

In such countries there are a lot of guns around, and the majority of homicides involve guns. Surprise - quite a few people think that they need a gun to protect themselves. Quite a lot of people in those countries find the idea of making gun ownership more difficult rather scary.


In other countries, it is comparatively difficult for anybody to buy a gun.

In such countries (TYPE NG) there are comparatively few guns around, and the majority of homicides do not involve guns. Surprise - not many people think that they need a gun to protect themselves. Quite a lot of people in those countries find the idea of making gun ownership easier rather scary.

(Oh yes, and Type NG countries tend to have markedly smaller overall homicide rates)

If we could start from scratch, all other things being equal, which would be a better kind of country to live in, do you think? Gosh, that's a hard one ...

[Alf'Omega]

I know of literally four people who have been shot at, and all four of them died. How did they get shot?

One was killed by his brother while hunting. It was an accident. I was in grade school with the shooter. His brother was two months away from graduating HS when his brother shot him thinking he was a deer in the trees.

The second, I didn't know personally, but an ex-fiance of mine told me the story about how her 14 year old brother was accidentally killed by his Dad at the house. Her father had guns in every room, and one day he had his gun in a vise while cleaning it when his son stuck his head around the door and said "Boo." The gun went off and killed him instantly, which wasn't surprising since the bullet went straight through his eye ball.

A third person was a little kid I knew in my teens. I found out about ten years ago that he had joined the air force, and was getting ready to go to grad school before he went on a hunting trip in the mountains. They found him a week later, at the bottom of a hill, and he apparently fell and accidentally shot himself.

A fourth victim I didn't know personally, but I knew his aunt. This was a toddler who found his parent's gun and ended up killing himself. Nothing is sadder than toddler death by guns owned by the parents, and this kind of tragedy happens mostly in states where guns are plenty and gun laws are weak.



This is a great question. And the answer is I've never had to "take cover" but who knows when to take cover? Sometimes I think those are fireworks going off outside or a car backfiring, only to find out later they were gun shots. But I'm over the age of 50, and in all my years I've never been in a situation where I thought to myself, I wish I had a gun to protect myself. That's because these imaginary scenarios of armed people kicking in your doors to steal your flat screen, to rape your wife and molest your children, are just that. Imaginary. Hence, no one needs a gun. And if they do, it is because there are too many people with guns already.

My anecdotal experience with guns above goes to the point that you don't make yourself safer by owning a gun. By owning a gun all you're doing is creating more possibilities for either you or your loved ones to be killed by gunshot.

To be serious with you for a minute. I know plenty of people who have been raped and molested and none of them thought it was imaginary. Women are raped during home invasions all the time. Why do feel like you have the right to dictate how they should or shouldn't protect themselves against a home invasion because you think home invasions are ""imaginary""?

Also, I can drive ten minutes down the street and enter a neighborhood where just about every household that can afford gun has a one for protection because of such a high crime rate. The neighborhood is made up of extremely poor people living pay check to pay check. Many households are elderly people who sleep with a gun beside them because of the crime rate in that area. Do you realize not everyone in America is as well off as a couple of middle aged white dudes talking on the internet?

Were these ladies really raped during a home invasion or was she just imagining it?

https://youtu.be/z1_qM5Jvx9E

https://youtu.be/IgxAE75LhDs

https://youtu.be/ZFxC7N3af5g

https://youtu.be/udACQmZadyM

https://youtu.be/2Sk_RVH4t5k

Nobody said rapes don't happen. We're discussing the cost benefit analysis of gun ownership. You just provided five examples of home invasions involving rape, but each instance happened in a high crime area (most gun owners don't live in high crime areas) and the victims were likely gun owners already and yet that didn't help them. I also noticed you had to scroll back 11 years on YouTube to find five examples. These rapes are extremely rare, they occured 11, 8, 6 and 3 years ago.

By comparison, in 2018, there were 78 children who were accidentally killed at home by a gun. That's just in one year whereas you're talking about five rapes over the span of eleven years, all of which were going to happen whether the victim was armed or not because all of these attacks were coordinated. Planned. They didn't involve kicking open a door while everyone is sleeping and a calm woman had the sudden awareness and nerve to pull out a gun from under her pillow before they jumped her.

[Alf'Omega]

It is also a nearly laughable assumption that our legal system would treat purported rape victims with kindness. We already know they don't. Rape victims are often doubted and criticized, so how do you they'd be treated if they killed the accused? More often than not, women would be arrested and imprisoned for murder.

[Chap]

... We're discussing the cost benefit analysis of gun ownership. ...

Oh, I wish we were. What we (or one of us at least) are doing instead is telling anecdotes about this old lady who [...] and this brave little 11-year old who [...] and this woman who [...] and so on. Then we ask "but what if they didn't have a gun???".

... in 2018, there were 78 children who were accidentally killed at home by a gun. That's just in one year ...

Nobody asks "what would those kids have done if there hadn't been a gun in the house?"* Because that's not a proper story. It's just a fact. And what is more, it isn't on Youtube. So it's irrelevant.



*ANSWER: They'd have grown up, that's what they would have done.

[Gunnar]

Carrying a gun increases risk of getting shot and killed

Overall, Branas’s study found that people who carried guns were 4.5 times as likely to be shot and 4.2 times as likely to get killed compared with unarmed citizens. When the team looked at shootings in which victims had a chance to defend themselves, their odds of getting shot were even higher.

Are gun owners statistically more likely to get shot and killed?

I suggest reading the whole article, but here are some takeaways I would like to point out:

“Even in more private situations, like confronting a robber in your home, the popular conception of the outcome is far from the truth. According to Mother Jones, for every time a gun is used in self-defense, there are seven assaults, 11 suicide attempts, and four accidents in or around the home. In reality, you’re far more likely to die at the hands of your own gun than you are to protect your family by shooting somebody else.”

In today’s society, especially in America, you are SIGNIFICANTLY LESS safe with a weapon around on average. Weapons are a tool of escalation only. They do not end conflicts in anything short of death or serious injury, and one is more likely to use something if it is easily available. “Good guys” put innocents and themselves at serious risk, most notably those closest to them. They are not well trained in situational awareness and they are not trained in police or military procedures. They are also not marked in any way by the police as BEING the “good guy.” Creating confusion and possibly death as well as possibly inadvertently giving an active shooter a distraction. “good guys” also are notoriously bad at determining what is and isn’t a threat and consistently shoot up civilians in test ranges and active shooter courses before undergoing any training.

In other words: If you are a "good guy" with a gun at a mass shooting event, you are more likely to be mistaken as a "bad guy" by any police at the scene, and get shot by the police yourself than succeed in stopping the real "bad guy." And if there are other "good guys" with guns at the same event, they are probably at least as likely to shoot at you and/or the other "good guys" with guns or be mistaken by you as "bad guys" themselves as any of the "good guys" present with guns are to succeed in actually taking down any real "bad guys" with guns, whether one or several.

On average, fewer people die from gun violence in states with strong gun laws and more people die in states with weak gun laws.12

Nationally, about 12 people are killed with guns for every 100,000 US residents.13

Alaska has the highest gun death rate among the states, as well as some of the weakest gun laws—nearly 25 people are killed with guns for every 100,000 residents.14

Hawaii has the lowest gun death rate and some of the strongest gun laws in the country. Comparatively, only two people are killed with guns for every 100,000 residents—less than one-tenth Alaska’s rate.15″

Gun Rhetoric vs. Gun Facts - FactCheck.org

[Some Schmo]

Overall, Branas’s study found that people who carried guns were 4.5 times as likely to be shot and 4.2 times as likely to get killed compared with unarmed citizens. When the team looked at shootings in which victims had a chance to defend themselves, their odds of getting shot were even higher.

I had a conversation with a friend of mine about guns, and he was arguing that you're safer with one than without. I asked him, "If you found yourself in the middle of a mass shooting, remembered your gun, and pulled it out to start firing back, who do you suppose the active shooter is going to focus on? You, or all the people not firing a gun?"

To his credit, that made him rethink his argument.

I also think about the Vegas shooter killing from long range. How would having a gun helped those victims?

[drumdude]

I had a conversation with a friend of mine about guns, and he was arguing that you're safer with one than without. I asked him, "If you found yourself in the middle of a mass shooting, remembered your gun, and pulled it out to start firing back, who do you suppose the active shooter is going to focus on? You, or all the people not firing a gun?"

To his credit, that made him rethink his argument.

I also think about the Vegas shooter killing from long range. How would having a gun helped those victims?

Supposedly at the University of Texas shooting in the 60s, everyone went to their trucks and got their hunting rifles. They shot back at the shooter in the tower, keeping him down and potentially saving lives.