How long/intensely did you believe in the historicity of the Book of Mormon?

[drumdude]

But Mormonism is so beautiful and complex: Universal salvation! Man shall be judged for their own sins! Eternal progression!

It’s a great value for only 10% of your income and 100% of your sanity.

[Res Ipsa]

I believed absolutely until I parted company with the church at age 19.

I had to re-read the opening post since MG has hijacked the thread to bare his testimonkey and I caught this. I’m sure you shared it before, but it might be useful for us to know how you managed to bounce on the Mormon church ‘back in the day’ without the aid of the Interwebs. Frankly, I’m always in awe of thos pre-internet days where people here and there fought through the gaslighting and manipulation to figure out the Book of Mormon and Mormon chirch is a con job.

- Doc

It started with doing a research paper and presentation on the Book of Abraham in my freshman year at BYU. While on my mission, I lived behind a trading post run by a young LDS couple. They had a library of church history materials, including the documentary history of the church, the old church newspapers, and some other materials. They were happy to let me read them. It didn’t take a ton of reading to see that the church as originally founded was substantially different from the church I’d been raised in.

At a general conference session, President Kimball gave a talk that I thought was rambling and borderline incoherent. It was like the Emperors New Clothes. I saw him as a frail old man who was losing his mental capabilities and once I saw that, I couldn’t unsee it.

All this caused cog dis to the point I became non-functional. It was torture to have to testify that I knew the church was true when I didn’t know that at all. I left my mission. After that, I read Mormonism: Shadow or Reality, and that sealed the deal.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

I left my mission.

OMG.

I had major cognitive dissonance on my mission, but the thought of bouncing was, to me at the time, impossible. Major props to you for having the internal character to leave your mission. If you don’t mind sharing, what was the fallout from that?

- Doc

[malkie]

Why do you think that the fact that essentially God IS NOT the silver platter god I’ve been referring to is a purely a selfish move on His part? Can you think of some valid reasons God might have for not revealing Himself directly and fully to every living being on the planet no matter what?

Regards,
MG

Well, let’s break this down.

1. Pre-mortal existence: Know God!
2. Be tossed into Veil of Forgetfulness.
3. Be born into a mortal body, with a two-tenths of one percent chance of that happening within an LDS family.
4. Stumble through life hoping to hear of or understand a God that hides from you on the daily.
5(a). Die, as a believing Mormon: then Know God! … maybe?
5(b). Or, die as a non-believer, and possibly be converted in the afterlife, or not.
6. Be placed into one of several possible post-mortal ‘kingdoms’.

Net result:

- Total number of souls that achieve a higher state of existence than before beginning The Plan: -0- percent.

- Total number of souls that achieve the same state of existence than before beginning The Plan: Less than 100%

- Total number of souls that achieve a lower state of existence than before beginning The Plan: more than 0%

‘Successful’ game participants end up at the same place as they inhabited before. Many game participants do not.

The game is rigged, and as you are denied knowledge of your premortal existence once you inhabit a mortal body, then any frame of reference to the benefits of that existence are eliminated, and you start back at Square 1 in the afterlife. And mortal experiences are not applicable in the afterlife.

There is nothing gained via this Plan aside from some amusement derived from it, for God.

(Apologies if I’ve made some mistakes in how The Plan plays out; please let me know where I went off track)

As a bit of reinforcement of your evaluation, we are told that people retain pretty much the same attitudes after death as they had while they lived. To me this means that a 5(b). person's chances of becoming a Mormon after death (through accepting vicarious work) is much the same as they would have been if they had been exposed to the church while alive. In other words, a very small value.

[MG 2.0]

Why do you think that the fact that essentially God IS NOT the silver platter god I’ve been referring to is a purely a selfish move on His part? Can you think of some valid reasons God might have for not revealing Himself directly and fully to every living being on the planet no matter what?

Regards,
MG

Well, let’s break this down.

1. Pre-mortal existence: Know God!
2. Be tossed into Veil of Forgetfulness.
3. Be born into a mortal body, with a two-tenths of one percent chance of that happening within an LDS family.
4. Stumble through life hoping to hear of or understand a God that hides from you on the daily.
5(a). Die, as a believing Mormon: then Know God! … maybe?
5(b). Or, die as a non-believer, and possibly be converted in the afterlife, or not.
6. Be placed into one of several possible post-mortal ‘kingdoms’.

Net result:

- Total number of souls that achieve a higher state of existence than before beginning The Plan: -0- percent.

- Total number of souls that achieve the same state of existence than before beginning The Plan: Less than 100%

- Total number of souls that achieve a lower state of existence than before beginning The Plan: more than 0%

‘Successful’ game participants end up at the same place as they inhabited before. Many game participants do not.

The game is rigged, and as you are denied knowledge of your premortal existence once you inhabit a mortal body, then any frame of reference to the benefits of that existence are eliminated, and you start back at Square 1 in the afterlife. And mortal experiences are not applicable in the afterlife.

There is nothing gained via this Plan aside from some amusement derived from it, for God.

(Apologies if I’ve made some mistakes in how The Plan plays out; please let me know where I went off track)

As an alternative plan, what would you suggest?

That also includes maximum agency.

By the way, I think that, as many have said here, not everyone is cut out to be a member of the church, per se. But that doesn’t mean that 99% plus of God’s children aren’t going to find the same fullness and happiness in an afterlife as me, you, or anyone else. None of us were members of a church in a premortal world [if it exist(s) (ed)]. None of us will be members of a church in a post mortal existence (if there is such an existence).

I would not be at all surprised to find out that we may have ‘signed on’ to a LIMITED scope/range of experiences before coming to earth. Kind of like signing up for school. Primary, secondary, and post secondary education. With options to matriculate to further opportunities either here or hereafter.

The primary reason for coming to earth is to gain a physical body and gain experience. If that experience is not to be had here then it will come later albeit under different conditions. There will be enough folks that have matriculated through the ‘earth program’ that they may well be able to help others along the way in the hereafter.

There are so many paths towards enlightenment and perfection. Mormonism teaches that we reach perfection within a sphere unique to ourselves. My perfection is going to vary from yours. The point is, we are reaching towards completeness/wholeness. Different strokes for different folks. So the fact so few sentient beings that experience earth life do so as members of the ‘true church’ doesn’t really matter. They are gaining similar experiences that they can take into an afterlife.

Work, love, discipline, family, etc.

Terryl Givens proposes that the main difference between Mormons and everyone else is that we have been given authority to build and operate temples and the performance of ordinances necessary for both salvation and/or exaltation. Work for EVERYONE, not just those that are members of the LDS Church.

I think God’s plan is much bigger than we suppose, but I also am of the opinion that the work that the church does through those that accept the fullness of the gospel is critically important in the work of salvation and/or exaltation of God’s children.

The emphasis you place on numbers aren’t of any great consequence. God already knows what that ratio of ‘members’ vs. ‘nonmembers’ is going to be and He’s planned out for it.

D&C 76 gives a general outline of how BIG the plan is and how all encompassing. Especially when compared with general Christianity.

Somehow and somewhere along the line I do think that every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ. The only perfect Son of God. But that doesn’t necessarily mean we will all follow Him. We will have agency in an afterlife just as we do here. And yes, we will still travel our own path as we do here, but with the knowledge that there is a Godhead and an overall plan which played a part in the life we came from while on earth.

The longer I live and the more I study, ponder, and pray, I see that ‘Mormonism’ encapsulates the complexity of life and cosmos better, in my opinion, than competing philosophical frameworks or belief systems. None seem to cover all the bases as well as the Restoration Gospel of Jesus Christ. But even the, there is so much to learn and try and understand.

We’re babes in arms.

Regards,
MG

[Marcus]

There are so many paths towards enlightenment and perfection. Mormonism teaches that we reach perfection within a sphere unique to ourselves...

Could you please provide a source for that teaching?

[Marcus]

I left my mission.

OMG.

I had major cognitive dissonance on my mission, but the thought of bouncing was, to me at the time, impossible. Major props to you for having the internal character to leave your mission. If you don’t mind sharing, what was the fallout from that?

- Doc

I seem to recall you explaining this, but i would be interested also if you wanted to repost.

[MG 2.0]

There is nothing gained via this Plan aside from some amusement derived from it, for God.

(Apologies if I’ve made some mistakes in how The Plan plays out; please let me know where I went off track)

I hope my previous post helps you understand that the ‘Plan’ is not as limited in scope as you might think according the the basic teachings of the CofJCofLDS.

For a person not a member of the faith you have a fairly rudimentary yet commendable understanding of the basic ‘Plan’. But as you can see from my post we’re ALL subject to the limitations of trying to wrap our minds around something so BIG that it would take a GOD to implement and carry through with such a long range and complex plan involving so many individual souls.

It is a numbers game, but I think that God, as well as ANY of us (oh heck, lets be honest, more than ANY of us, ha ha) understands how the numbers all come together to coalesce and make sense in the end game.

It is fun to try and crunch the numbers though, isn’t it?

Regards,
MG

[Marcus]

There are so many paths towards enlightenment and perfection. Mormonism teaches that we reach perfection within a sphere unique to ourselves...

Could you please provide a source for that teaching?

[Gadianton]

I see that ‘Mormonism’ encapsulates the complexity of life and cosmos better, in my opinion, than competing philosophical frameworks or belief systems

Because you know so much about the complexity of life, the cosmos, and the many competing philosophical frameworks and belief systems.

MG 2.0, a world acclaimed expert on the cosmos, biology, and world religions, figured out that the sum total of all of it was explained by Mormonism.