WW2 politics, and leading up to the War and beyond...

[canpakes]

Did you watch the podcast at all, and if you did when? Did you watch it before you reference it?

I have the transcript.

This is what Cooper said....

"when they went into the east in 1941, they launched a war where they were completely unprepared to deal with the millions and millions of prisoners of war, of local political prisoners and so forth, that they were going to have to handle; they went in with no plan for that...and, they just threw these people into camps and millions of people ended up dead there. You have letters, as early as July August 1941 from commandants of these makeshift camps they are setting up for these millions of people who were surrendering, or people they were rounding up, so two months after, or a month or two after operation Barbarossa was launched, and they are writing back to the high command in Berlin saying, "we can't feed these people, we don't have the food to feed these people," one of them actually says..." Rather to wait for them to slowly wait for these people to starve this winter, wouldn't it be more humane for us to finish them off quickly now..."

What part of what he wrote is not true?

See Marcus’ earlier post:
viewtopic.php?p=2898484#p2898484

Can you answer any of my questions, now? I’ve made both even simpler for you to answer, by indicating sources:

1. Markk, can you explain why the Nazis “kept the Jews in ghettos and worked and starved them to death for the most part, when they were not beating and shooting them” (your words from a previous post)… but then felt stressed when they rounded them up and couldn’t starve them fast enough while stuffed into concentration camps? (your anecdote from a previous post)

2. Do you believe Cooper’s claim that the Nazis really didn’t mean to kill the Jews, but ended up doing so for ‘humane’ reasons? (as noted in the transcript and by you in previous posts)

As a way of rephrasing #2, do you believe that the Nazis had any intention of keeping their Jewish prisoners well-fed and healthy, to be released at some future time?

Do you want to dodge again?

[Marcus]

Did you watch the podcast at all, and if you did when? Did you watch it before you reference it?

I have the transcript.

This is what Cooper said....



What part of what he wrote is not true?

See Marcus’ earlier post:
viewtopic.php?p=2898484#p2898484

...Do you want to dodge again?

I think he's doing a Peterson...he was caught with a big error but all he can do is pretend he didn't see the correction. Kind of like when a toddler covers their eyes and pretends mom and dad can't see them.

Toddlers grew up, though, and eventually realize everyone can see what's really happening. I don't know Markk well enough to know what his excuse is.

[Markk]

I have the transcript.

Can you please link me to that transcript?

[canpakes]

I have the transcript.

Can you please link me to that transcript?

Sure. Go here:

https://www.happyscribe.com/public/the- ... ned-europe

At 00:47:23 the conversation swings to Churchill and the ‘chief villain’ comment (Cooper claims that he used the characterization to provoke a friend in conversation, but expands on the label) with discussion of related event evolution continuing until around 01:12:24, when Carlson plugs his Trump documentary. The ‘humane’ comments come at around 49 minutes in.

Markk, I’m not trying to ‘gotcha’ you with my question. I’m just wanting to know if you think that the eventual outcome of the Holocaust - and the killing of 6 million Jews - was the result of the Nazis just not having enough food laying around and then killing their prisoners for ‘humane’ reasons, or because killing the Jews was a planned objective of the Nazi regime prior to Hitler’s invasion of much of Europe. Cooper seems to be suggesting the former.

[Physics Guy]

The Germans went to war with no plan to feed and house millions of prisoners, that’s true. It was definitely not because they just hadn’t thought of the problem, though. This was not a bunch of amateurs stumbling into a family vacation and forgetting about the pets. This was the goddamned German General Staff.

They didn’t plan to feed millions of prisoners, because they planned for millions of prisoners to die.

Exactly how these people would die could be worked out along the way; it wasn’t a high priority to do it efficiently right from the start. So it wasn’t a detailed plan from the outset. It wasn’t even necessarily an actual goal of the generals themselves, as opposed to the Nazi leaders, to kill so many prisoners and civilians. It was certainly no better than conscious and deliberate negligence, though, on the part of a large team of world-class experts in large-scale logistics. There is no excuse here whatever.

[canpakes]

The Germans went to war with no plan to feed and house millions of prisoners, that’s true. It was definitely not because they just hadn’t thought of the problem, though. This was not a bunch of amateurs stumbling into a family vacation and forgetting about the pets. This was the goddamned German General Staff.

They didn’t plan to feed millions of prisoners, because they planned for millions of prisoners to die.

Exactly how these people would die could be worked out along the way; it wasn’t a high priority to do it efficiently right from the start. So it wasn’t a detailed plan from the outset. It wasn’t even necessarily an actual goal of the generals themselves, as opposed to the Nazi leaders, to kill so many prisoners and civilians. It was certainly no better than conscious and deliberate negligence, though, on the part of a large team of world-class experts in large-scale logistics. There is no excuse here whatever.

This is where I see Markk not grasping what I’m asking with regard to Cooper’s assertion. My question is not about how the Germans planned to kill the Jews, but about how the Germans planned to kill the Jews regardless.

[Gadianton]

What part of what he wrote is not true?

Let's start with the very first line, which is a lie:

when they went into the east in 1941, they launched a war where they were completely unprepared to deal with the millions and millions of prisoners of war, of local political prisoners and so forth,

The World Holocaust Remembrance Center that Marcus quoted, accurately summarizes Cooper as saying:

Recently, Darryl Cooper, in a podcast with Tucker Carlson, made statements that grossly misrepresent the German Nazi regime’s actions during Operation Barbarossa in 1941. Cooper claimed that the Nazis were "unprepared" to handle millions of prisoners of war and political dissidents,

Markk summarizes Cooper incorrectly, giving us a clue about the way in which Cooper lies.

My point about Cooper and still is that his claim, which was disputed by some, is that the Germans were no prepared for the Millions of political prisoners, POW's, and Jew's

Cooper doesn't mentions Jews in Markk's quote. He's either lumping Jews into "political prisoners," a lie and gross misuse of the term, or as "so forth". That's like saying the trillions in US national debt is made up of school lunch programs, foreign aid, and some such, is a truthful statement. But the debt comparison yet fails to match the magnitude of the lie in an important way. Let's go through a portion of the Wiki writeup carefully:

By mid-1935, there were only five camps, holding 4,000 prisoners, and 13 employees at the central IKL office. At the same time, 100,000 people were imprisoned in German jails, a quarter of those for political offenses.[21] Believing Nazi Germany to be imperiled by internal enemies, Himmler called for a war against the "organized elements of sub-humanity", including communists, socialists, Jews, Freemasons, and criminals. Himmler won Hitler's backing

They were on the brink of closure. Totally unnecessary, when Himmler, the guy Markk is insisting "felt bad" fires up the need to fill them, and in fact, is the guy who convinced Hitler to do it!

By the end of June 1938, the prisoner population had expanded threefold in the previous six months, to 24,000 prisoners.

After the Kristallnacht pogrom in November 1938, 26,000 Jewish men were deported to concentration camps following mass arrests, overwhelming the capacity of the system

After years of activity, the camps got up to 24,000 of political prisoners and criminals and etc., and then doubled with one sweep of Jews, overwhelming the system. The system is overwhelmed at 50,000. There's not "millions" living well in camps and suddenly, where's the food?

Most of the Jewish prisoners were soon released, often after promising to emigrate

WOW! It never occurred to Markk of Cooper that if there's too many people overcrowding the camps, then one option is to let them go! And the Nazis did just that, after all, there wasn't the barest pretense for arrest in the first place!

The number of prisoners tripled from 21,000 in August 1939 to about 70,000 to 80,000 in early 1942

The number of prisoners tripled from 21,000 in August 1939 to about 70,000 to 80,000 in early 1942.[35] This expansion was driven by the demand for forced labor and later the invasion of the Soviet Union. By 1942, we're a long ways away from the "millions" Cooper promised us.

The camps shift focus to forced labor with those who couldn't work executed, and then later, Soviet POWs executed in gas chambers. We're somewhere around 100,000 and the Nazis are already conducting mass exterminations. In other words, they'd already figured out options for overcrowding 1) letting innocent civilians go 2) mass exterminations, including with gas.

During the second half of the war, Auschwitz swelled in size – fueled by the deportation of hundreds of thousands of Jews – and became the center of the camp system. It was the deadliest concentration camp and Jews sent there faced a virtual death sentence even if they were not immediately killed, as most were. In August 1943, 74,000 of the 224,000 registered prisoners in all SS concentration camps were in Auschwitz.

So we're deep into Auschwitz, and still the "millions" of prisoners Markk has promised us are nowhere to be found.

Most Jews who were persecuted and killed during the Holocaust were never prisoners in concentration camps.[51] Significant numbers of Jews were imprisoned beginning in November 1938 because of Kristallnacht, after which they were always overrepresented as prisoners.[63] During the height of the Holocaust from 1941 to 1943, the Jewish population of the concentration camps was low.[31] Extermination camps for the mass murder of Jews—Kulmhof, Belzec, Sobibor, and Treblinka—were set up outside the concentration camp system.[64][65] The existing IKL camps Auschwitz and Majdanek gained additional function as extermination camps.[44][66]

So far I've been quoting the wiki entry on Concentration Camps. Switching to Extermination Camps:

Nazi Germany used six extermination camps (German: Vernichtungslager), also called death camps (Todeslager), or killing centers (Tötungszentren), in Central Europe, primarily in occupied Poland, during World War II to systematically murder over 2.7 million people – mostly Jews – in the Holocaust

Now, we get into Markk's millions. The big numbers that had something to do with a "camp" were those torn from their homes and sent directly to extermination camps. After having read the few quotes I've provided, let's reread Markk's second favorite liar:

"when they went into the east in 1941, they launched a war where they were completely unprepared to deal with the millions and millions of prisoners of war, of local political prisoners and so forth, that they were going to have to handle; they went in with no plan for that...and, they just threw these people into camps and millions of people ended up dead there.

There were never of millions of prisoners of war or political prisoners or "so forth" Jewish people to feed. Millions of people were not just ending up dead there. The Nazis were executing them if they didn't make economic sense or just letting Jews go before there were even 100,000 prisoners and there were never "millions" of prisoners being held and fed.

[Markk]

Did you watch the podcast at all, and if you did when? Did you watch it before you reference it?

I have the transcript.

This is what Cooper said....



What part of what he wrote is not true?

See Marcus’ earlier post:
viewtopic.php?p=2898484#p2898484

Can you answer any of my questions, now? I’ve made both even simpler for you to answer, by indicating sources:

1. Markk, can you explain why the Nazis “kept the Jews in ghettos and worked and starved them to death for the most part, when they were not beating and shooting them” (your words from a previous post)… but then felt stressed when they rounded them up and couldn’t starve them fast enough while stuffed into concentration camps? (your anecdote from a previous post)

2. Do you believe Cooper’s claim that the Nazis really didn’t mean to kill the Jews, but ended up doing so for ‘humane’ reasons? (as noted in the transcript and by you in previous posts)

As a way of rephrasing #2, do you believe that the Nazis had any intention of keeping their Jewish prisoners well-fed and healthy, to be released at some future time?

Do you want to dodge again?

This is actually great, and aging how you keep changing questions after I answer them. Question 2 started as " 2. Do you believe Cooper’s claim?" to this version.

Cakes: As a way of rephrasing #2, do you believe that the Nazis had any intention of keeping their Jewish prisoners well-fed and healthy, to be released at some future time?

No, I see no historical evidence for that at all. They put them in the Ghetto as a means of segregation to keep track of them as Huck and I are discussing. And while their they starved them, forced them in slave labor, beat them, shot them etc. This was for lack of a better term the "middle" of the Jewish question, until the problem could be ironed out, as I already explained by the Heydrich at the Wannsee Conference for the final solution of the Jewish Question.

Generally the first stage was was Hitler getting control of the nation. The propaganda machine against the Jews began, then the laws formed against them and the policies to take away their rights and property. The first hope of this was for the Jews to pack up and leave Germany, which many did. Roughly there were just over have half a million Jews in in Germany, by the September Campaign into Poland in 39 there were around 200, 300 thousand had immigrated away from there homes and business's in Germany, may here.

After Fall Weiss, the Germans came into what I referred to as the middle stage of the Jewish Question where, as you learned in an earlier post, that almost over night they had 3 million Jews to deal with. They shot them, beat them, starved them, and isolated them eventually into Ghettos and camps throughout Poland. The Warsaw Ghetto was established about a year after the invasion into Poland.

Keep in mind also that the Germans not only persecuted the Jews, they also persecuted JW's, communists, pollical leaders, and other "undesirables."
They shot and killed thousands of Gypsies in Poland, and more as they went East. They murdered well over 1.5 million non-Jewish Poles during the war.

I can go on and on, but I think even you can see the point here in this answer to you last question.

If you got some kind of profound other reconstruction and interpretation of History, please do tell me it and how my interpretation is wrong.

by the way, in one of your other rephrased question #2, I never heard Copper say that the Germans didn't mean to kill the Jews, I heard him say this,

"when they went into the east in 1941, they launched a war where they were completely unprepared to deal with the millions and millions of prisoners of war, of local political prisoners and so forth, that they were going to have to handle; they went in with no plan for that...and, they just threw these people into camps and millions of people ended up dead there. You have letters, as early as July August 1941 from commandants of these makeshift camps they are setting up for these millions of people who were surrendering, or people they were rounding up, so two months after, or a month or two after operation Barbarossa was launched, and they are writing back to the high command in Berlin saying, "we can't feed these people, we don't have the food to feed these people," one of them actually says..." Rather to wait for them to slowly wait for these people to starve this winter, wouldn't it be more humane for us to finish them off quickly now..."

These are his words....quoting the Actual commandants of the camps.

[Markk]

Can you please link me to that transcript?

Sure. Go here:

https://www.happyscribe.com/public/the- ... ned-europe

At 00:47:23 the conversation swings to Churchill and the ‘chief villain’ comment (Cooper claims that he used the characterization to provoke a friend in conversation, but expands on the label) with discussion of related event evolution continuing until around 01:12:24, when Carlson plugs his Trump documentary. The ‘humane’ comments come at around 49 minutes in.

Markk, I’m not trying to ‘gotcha’ you with my question. I’m just wanting to know if you think that the eventual outcome of the Holocaust - and the killing of 6 million Jews - was the result of the Nazis just not having enough food laying around and then killing their prisoners for ‘humane’ reasons, or because killing the Jews was a planned objective of the Nazi regime prior to Hitler’s invasion of much of Europe. Cooper seems to be suggesting the former.

This is what we are currently discussing, and what he said in the link ....

Yeah. Well, and the next thought that comes into their head is that, oh, you're saying Churchill was the chief villain, therefore his enemies, Adolf Hitler and so forth, were Stalin, the protagonists. Right. They're the good guys. If you think he's a villain, that's not the case. That's not what I'm saying. Germany, look, they put themselves into a position, and Adolf Hitler is chiefly responsible for this, but his whole regime is responsible for it, that when they went into the east in 1941, they launched a war where they were completely unprepared to deal with the millions and millions of prisoners of war, of local political prisoners and so forth that they were going to have to handle. They went in with no plan for that, and they just threw these people into camps, and millions of people ended up dead. There you have letters as early as July, August, 1941, from commandants of these makeshift camps that theyre setting up for these millions of people who were surrendering or people theyre rounding up. So its two months after, a month or two after Barbarossa was launched, and theyre writing back to the high command in Berlin saying, we can't feed these people.

[00:49:42]
We don't have the food to feed these people. And one of them actually says, rather than wait for them all to slowly starve this winter, wouldn't it be more humane to just finish them off quickly now? And so this is like two months into the invasion. Right? And my view on this, I argue with my zionist interlocutors about this all the time with regard to the current war in Gaza. Look, man, maybe you, as the Germans, you felt like you had to invade to the east. Maybe you thought that Stalin was such a threat or that if he launched a surprise attack and seized the oil fields in Romania, that you would now not have the fuel to actually respond and you'd be crippled and all of Europe would be under threat. And whatever it was, whatever it was, that, like, maybe you thought you had to do that, but at the end of the day, you launched that war with no plan to care for the millions and millions of civilians and prisoners of war that were going to come under your control, and millions of people died because of that. You can look at it and say, well, yeah.

Where is Cooper saying...." that the Germans didn't mean to kill the Jews," as you are asserting?


Your question is just a dumb question that has nothing to do with history, with what Cooper said, or even logic reason.

You came into this post late, you did not read the link you provided in the OP, and as you now concede you never even listen to the podcast, and my guess is you just recently read the transcript and are now stepping you questions back.

Carry on....

[Marcus]

"when they went into the east in 1941, they launched a war where they were completely unprepared to deal with the millions and millions of prisoners of war, of local political prisoners and so forth, that they were going to have to handle; they went in with no plan for that...and, they just threw these people into camps and millions of people ended up dead there. You have letters, as early as July August 1941 from commandants of these makeshift camps they are setting up for these millions of people who were surrendering, or people they were rounding up, so two months after, or a month or two after operation Barbarossa was launched, and they are writing back to the high command in Berlin saying, "we can't feed these people, we don't have the food to feed these people," one of them actually says..." Rather to wait for them to slowly wait for these people to starve this winter, wouldn't it be more humane for us to finish them off quickly now..."

These are his words....quoting the Actual commandants of the camps.

Lol. No he wasn't, as has been shown, repeatedly. Your argument is invalidated by your insistence on using information that has been proven to be untrue.